help identifying writing system

fernando · 24th September 2005, 07:55 PM

Hi gentlemen
I am trying to figure out the origin of a flintlock pistol i have acquired.
I am aware that this forum members cover a wide range of language
knowledgements.
Is there somebody familiar to this type of caligraphy, to coment on what could be written in this engraving on its barrel.
Thanks a lot.

Rick · 24th September 2005, 07:59 PM

Can you show us a picture of the entire pistol please Fernando .
Often form is key to identification of origin which will then help in identifying the language of the inscription .

Tim Simmons · 24th September 2005, 08:14 PM

This is just a thought from the hip. I have dha with the same type of silver wire hammered into crosshatching to form floral patterns as on this pistol, maybe that is a clue. Tim

ham · 25th September 2005, 12:22 AM

This is an Ottoman flintlock pistol dating after 1800, the inscription is in Arabic characters however it is very poorly written and the image is reversed 180 degrees.

Ham

fernando · 25th September 2005, 02:57 PM

Thank you Ham, for the info on the arabic script and also on the model being Ottoman. I will follow your track, for further investigation.
Thank you Rick and T
I still insert the pistol pictures, Rick and Tim, which i had just taken. An ethno type of pistol, with the usual mix of pronenances, like the poorly fitted brass butt cap, saved from a western pistol, and the naive insertion of a crest, probably from the same origin. The large brass bands seem to be from the original mounting, as matching with the disposition of the barrel decorations, which i take as an added value in these pieces, although i favour the existance of the barrel inscription, and the whatever contents of its text.
I hope to get further with that.

Battara · 25th September 2005, 08:45 PM

Looking at the rest of the pictures, could it be Balkan, say, Albanian?

Rivkin · 26th September 2005, 02:30 AM

Novice's question - this writing (as well as writing on some other ottoman artefacts) looks exactly like "iranian arabic" to me - is it really close to iranian writing or it's just me ?

Battara · 26th September 2005, 08:06 PM

It is not unusual to have Persian on Ottoman pieces. Some of the smiths and workers came from the Persian court and were employed by the Ottomans.

ham · 27th September 2005, 06:25 AM

This touches on a complex subject-- here are a few thoughts which hopefully will clarify the use of the term "Arabic": Arabic is both a language belonging to the Semitic family, spoken by Arab peoples, and the name of the alphabet used to express that language beginning in 4th century Arabia; it predates the rise of Islam and derives from Nabatean. After the spread of Islam, Arabic script was adopted by subject peoples, many of whom also became Muslim. Some of these adopted Arabic as a spoken language as well, most did not. Any Muslim who became a scholar however, regardless of origin, necessarily learned it.

Contrary to popular conception, Arabic, Persian and the Turkic languages are linguistically unrelated. However Arabic, as the language of the conquerors AND Islam, strongly influenced both Persian and Turkish, primarily through loan words and to a lesser extent, gramatically. Prior to their exposure to Islam and the Arabic language and alphabet, both Persian and Turkic cultures also had alphabets of their own. These fell out of use after the advent of Islam but are preserved in coins and other artefacts as well as stone carvings in a variety of spots throughout Iran and the Central Asian steppes. The use of the Arabic alphabet also occurred among subject peoples who did not convert to Islam-- in the 10th-12th century, the Muslim Fatimid Dynasty of North Africa contained large numbers of Christians and Jews in its capital at Cairo. Both churches and synagogues there bore public texts in Coptic and Hebrew; these were often expressed in the Arabic alphabet.

Regardless of the culture which uses it then, this symbol system qualifies as, simply, the Arabic alphabet. Certain "fonts" of Arabic are associated more with particular areas than others, however. In the Ottoman Empire, a font called "sulus," the Turkish rendering of the Arabic "thuluth" (meaning "one third," and refering to the even proportions of that particular font) was popular for official documents and public embellishments, while in Iran, "Nastaliq," a very flowing font, was popular for the same purposes during the height of the Safavid Dynasty. Despite the addition of certain characters (such as a "ch" and "p,") both the alphabets used in the Ottoman Empire and Iran remain Arabic. (As a side issue, Battara's comment above is quite accurate: Persian was also used as a poetic language among educated aristocrats in the Ottoman Empire -- a bit like graduate students at ivy league philosophy department cocktail parties tossing around Latin or French phrases in conversation, with the intention of dazzling coeds.)

Further, Arabic was (and is) the liturgical language of any Islamic state worldwide, though not necessarily the spoken language. Returning to the pistol under discussion above, the inscription definitely uses the Arabic alphabet, however it is not distinctive enough to assign a font-- nor for that matter is it even distinct. It is either exceedingly esoteric... or very poorly written, probably the latter. Often in cases like this, the inscription was copied from another item by an illiterate craftsman.

Comparable circumstances apply in Western Europe. The Latin alphabet used by the Romans was imposed upon and adopted by the peoples they conquered as well, including Europe and the British Isles. Today, English, French, German, and Italian to name a few, are written in the same Latin alphabet, though all have added characters or diacriticals (the French accent grave and aigu marks, and the German umlauts) to allow them to express the sounds of their particular languages more accurately. Therefore, a Frenchman can easily read English or German letters, whether or not he comprehends the meaning of the words. Likewise, though perhaps more painful on the ears, an Englishman can do the same... again however, he will likely not know their meaning.

To recap: despite the fact that Arabic, Persian and Turkish all used the same alphabet well into the 20th century, they are mutually legible though not mutually intelligible (outside of loan words and certain religious quotations which are universal among Muslims.) Part of the problem for students of Islamic cultures is that the term "Arabic" identifies both the language and the alphabet. For this reason, the written languages discussed above are referred to by their names, i.e. Arabic, Turkish, Persian... since it it is already understood that they are all rendered in the same alphabet.

Hopefully, the brief and general nature of the foregoing does not limit its usefulness.

Ham

fernando · 27th September 2005, 08:13 PM

I humbly thank you Ham, for the finest clarification of the term "Arabic".
Your paragraph on the influence of dominant alphabets and languages, like Latin, reminds me that only after 1960 the Catholic Mass stopped being dealt in actual Latin, with everybody reading out loud the Latin prayers and Bible parts, without comprehending what the words meant, except for the Priest. One other interesting angle is that, High degree diplomas are still nowadays being issued in real parchment and written in Latin ... at least over here.
I started yesterday searching the Net on the pistol model, following the Ottoman track, and saw partly similar examples, quoted as of an Ottoman ( Turkish ) pattern.
I also queried a Persian Forum, to check on the Farsi possibility. The following were the answers:

Sorry, but that doesn't look like Persian. Even if it is, it is certainly not legible..

Looks like Arabic to me. The rightmost word seems to be the Arabic word: SAN'A meaning manufactured or built. The second word must be a name..

I wonder if the second answer is a promising aproach.

ham · 27th September 2005, 09:25 PM

Hm. Looking at the image right way 'round, one can (very weakly) argue that at the far left, there are some squiggles which if pressed, could be read as a date, 1220, or about 1806 in the Muslim calendar-- however these are interspersed with another character which could be taken as a 5, though I think that is just a diacritical mark, perhaps a "sukuun." Gads, what a mess. This fellow's Arabic instructor would have rapped his knuckles bloody if he ever saw it.
The primary concern here however is that this piece does not likely date so early. Possibly the barrel and lock do, suggesting they were restocked in the latter 19th century. A feasible, if circuitous, path to the present.

Sincerely,

Ham

24th September 2005, 07:55 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,680	help identifying writing system Hi gentlemen I am trying to figure out the origin of a flintlock pistol i have acquired. I am aware that this forum members cover a wide range of language knowledgements. Is there somebody familiar to this type of caligraphy, to coment on what could be written in this engraving on its barrel. Thanks a lot. Attached Images

24th September 2005, 07:59 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,272	Pistol Can you show us a picture of the entire pistol please Fernando . Often form is key to identification of origin which will then help in identifying the language of the inscription .

25th September 2005, 12:22 AM	#4
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	This is an Ottoman flintlock pistol dating after 1800, the inscription is in Arabic characters however it is very poorly written and the image is reversed 180 degrees. Ham Last edited by ham; 25th September 2005 at 12:41 AM.

25th September 2005, 02:57 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,680	Thank you Ham, for the info on the arabic script and also on the model being Ottoman. I will follow your track, for further investigation. Thank you Rick and T I still insert the pistol pictures, Rick and Tim, which i had just taken. An ethno type of pistol, with the usual mix of pronenances, like the poorly fitted brass butt cap, saved from a western pistol, and the naive insertion of a crest, probably from the same origin. The large brass bands seem to be from the original mounting, as matching with the disposition of the barrel decorations, which i take as an added value in these pieces, although i favour the existance of the barrel inscription, and the whatever contents of its text. I hope to get further with that. Attached Images

27th September 2005, 06:25 AM	#9
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Point of order This touches on a complex subject-- here are a few thoughts which hopefully will clarify the use of the term "Arabic": Arabic is both a language belonging to the Semitic family, spoken by Arab peoples, and the name of the alphabet used to express that language beginning in 4th century Arabia; it predates the rise of Islam and derives from Nabatean. After the spread of Islam, Arabic script was adopted by subject peoples, many of whom also became Muslim. Some of these adopted Arabic as a spoken language as well, most did not. Any Muslim who became a scholar however, regardless of origin, necessarily learned it. Contrary to popular conception, Arabic, Persian and the Turkic languages are linguistically unrelated. However Arabic, as the language of the conquerors AND Islam, strongly influenced both Persian and Turkish, primarily through loan words and to a lesser extent, gramatically. Prior to their exposure to Islam and the Arabic language and alphabet, both Persian and Turkic cultures also had alphabets of their own. These fell out of use after the advent of Islam but are preserved in coins and other artefacts as well as stone carvings in a variety of spots throughout Iran and the Central Asian steppes. The use of the Arabic alphabet also occurred among subject peoples who did not convert to Islam-- in the 10th-12th century, the Muslim Fatimid Dynasty of North Africa contained large numbers of Christians and Jews in its capital at Cairo. Both churches and synagogues there bore public texts in Coptic and Hebrew; these were often expressed in the Arabic alphabet. Regardless of the culture which uses it then, this symbol system qualifies as, simply, the Arabic alphabet. Certain "fonts" of Arabic are associated more with particular areas than others, however. In the Ottoman Empire, a font called "sulus," the Turkish rendering of the Arabic "thuluth" (meaning "one third," and refering to the even proportions of that particular font) was popular for official documents and public embellishments, while in Iran, "Nastaliq," a very flowing font, was popular for the same purposes during the height of the Safavid Dynasty. Despite the addition of certain characters (such as a "ch" and "p,") both the alphabets used in the Ottoman Empire and Iran remain Arabic. (As a side issue, Battara's comment above is quite accurate: Persian was also used as a poetic language among educated aristocrats in the Ottoman Empire -- a bit like graduate students at ivy league philosophy department cocktail parties tossing around Latin or French phrases in conversation, with the intention of dazzling coeds.) Further, Arabic was (and is) the liturgical language of any Islamic state worldwide, though not necessarily the spoken language. Returning to the pistol under discussion above, the inscription definitely uses the Arabic alphabet, however it is not distinctive enough to assign a font-- nor for that matter is it even distinct. It is either exceedingly esoteric... or very poorly written, probably the latter. Often in cases like this, the inscription was copied from another item by an illiterate craftsman. Comparable circumstances apply in Western Europe. The Latin alphabet used by the Romans was imposed upon and adopted by the peoples they conquered as well, including Europe and the British Isles. Today, English, French, German, and Italian to name a few, are written in the same Latin alphabet, though all have added characters or diacriticals (the French accent grave and aigu marks, and the German umlauts) to allow them to express the sounds of their particular languages more accurately. Therefore, a Frenchman can easily read English or German letters, whether or not he comprehends the meaning of the words. Likewise, though perhaps more painful on the ears, an Englishman can do the same... again however, he will likely not know their meaning. To recap: despite the fact that Arabic, Persian and Turkish all used the same alphabet well into the 20th century, they are mutually legible though not mutually intelligible (outside of loan words and certain religious quotations which are universal among Muslims.) Part of the problem for students of Islamic cultures is that the term "Arabic" identifies both the language and the alphabet. For this reason, the written languages discussed above are referred to by their names, i.e. Arabic, Turkish, Persian... since it it is already understood that they are all rendered in the same alphabet. Hopefully, the brief and general nature of the foregoing does not limit its usefulness. Ham Last edited by ham; 27th September 2005 at 04:27 PM.

24th September 2005, 08:14 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,755	This is just a thought from the hip. I have dha with the same type of silver wire hammered into crosshatching to form floral patterns as on this pistol, maybe that is a clue. Tim

25th September 2005, 08:45 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,170	Looking at the rest of the pictures, could it be Balkan, say, Albanian?

26th September 2005, 02:30 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Novice's question - this writing (as well as writing on some other ottoman artefacts) looks exactly like "iranian arabic" to me - is it really close to iranian writing or it's just me ?

26th September 2005, 08:06 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,170	It is not unusual to have Persian on Ottoman pieces. Some of the smiths and workers came from the Persian court and were employed by the Ottomans.

27th September 2005, 08:13 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,680	I humbly thank you Ham, for the finest clarification of the term "Arabic". Your paragraph on the influence of dominant alphabets and languages, like Latin, reminds me that only after 1960 the Catholic Mass stopped being dealt in actual Latin, with everybody reading out loud the Latin prayers and Bible parts, without comprehending what the words meant, except for the Priest. One other interesting angle is that, High degree diplomas are still nowadays being issued in real parchment and written in Latin ... at least over here. I started yesterday searching the Net on the pistol model, following the Ottoman track, and saw partly similar examples, quoted as of an Ottoman ( Turkish ) pattern. I also queried a Persian Forum, to check on the Farsi possibility. The following were the answers: Sorry, but that doesn't look like Persian. Even if it is, it is certainly not legible.. Looks like Arabic to me. The rightmost word seems to be the Arabic word: SAN'A meaning manufactured or built. The second word must be a name.. I wonder if the second answer is a promising aproach.

27th September 2005, 09:25 PM	#11
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Hm. Looking at the image right way 'round, one can (very weakly) argue that at the far left, there are some squiggles which if pressed, could be read as a date, 1220, or about 1806 in the Muslim calendar-- however these are interspersed with another character which could be taken as a 5, though I think that is just a diacritical mark, perhaps a "sukuun." Gads, what a mess. This fellow's Arabic instructor would have rapped his knuckles bloody if he ever saw it. The primary concern here however is that this piece does not likely date so early. Possibly the barrel and lock do, suggesting they were restocked in the latter 19th century. A feasible, if circuitous, path to the present. Sincerely, Ham