Early Pandor Yataghan sabre??

Andy Stevens · 22nd July 2010, 01:25 PM

Hello all!
We haven't posted in the discussion forums for a while and if truth be told have missed the buzz of the place! In the spirit of recent changes we have decided to start showing some of our more interesting and unusual pieces!
Our first offering is this Yataghan. from previous posts we have learned it may have been used by Pandor units in service with the Austrian army. At some point, a long time ago, the fittings have been put on upside down! We look forward to hearing any comments, particularly on the hilt. We think it's an early example but it's unlike any we have seen before. As a weapon, it feels very heavy and functional!

Andy

Dmitry · 22nd July 2010, 06:55 PM

This is a curiosity!
I just looked in my book on Austro-Hungarian swords and saw a Pandur sword with a very similarly-shaped yataghan style blade, but with a different hilt.

TVV · 22nd July 2010, 07:48 PM

I have a bad feeling for this one - the blade looks really rough, almost like it was cut from a sheet of steel. The guard and the rest of the hilt do not match, and I am not sure this could be explained away with a pandour attribution. I am sorry, but to me it looks like a composite piece.
Regards,
Teodor

Dmitry · 22nd July 2010, 08:08 PM

FWIW, the turned down guard is similar in shape to the European hunting swords of the 1770s-1790s, albeit a crude one.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2010, 08:32 PM

I must agree with Teodor, and this appears very much an item made 'in the style of' a yataghan type sword, which has some age, but most likely late 19th century. It has an almost theatrical appearance in the stylized elements, and the blade as noted seems like sheet stock, very heavy and thick looking.
The curious guard, which is a block like interpretation of a weapon of the hirschfanger form in a grouping of these in a museum in Vienna, attributed to pandours, but probably actually of later provenance. One of these has the 'Vivat Pandur' motto on the blade, which was a popular slogan added much later in recognition of these troops which had by then achieved a dubious notoriety.

The original pandour units of Baron von Trenck were assembled in 1744, though numbers of these units had been auxiliaries in Austrias Imperial armies since the early 18th century. As auxiliary units, these troops used exotic and often wild looking fashion and all types of 'oriental' type weaponry, operating as foragers and skirmishers that typically exceeded regulation. When thier depradations became out of control, they were disbanded and von Trenck was imprisoned, where he died in prison in 1749.
The concept for these auxiliary units continued in similar application in a number of Continental armies, including Germany's 'Freikorps'.

While the original pandour forces indeed had certain reference to a degree of use of the yataghans, these were among a wide range of variants of swords and hangers as these troops were privately raised and from regions in the Balkans and East Europe, with 'oriental' costume and weapons favored. For this item, that attribution seems improbable, though I very much enjoy seeing this very esoteric topic brought up!!!

By the 19th century, certain exotic units existed as auxiliaries in a number of armies, but the 'vivat pandur' inscriptions were typically bravado placed on hunting weapons in my opinion...very much like 'Remember the Alamo' on some hunting type Bowies. This example seems far later than even the period of these units. Just my opinion, and I wish I could be more optimistic. I sure hate to welcome your post with not so good news.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 22nd July 2010, 10:42 PM

double posting, sorry....

ariel · 22nd July 2010, 11:01 PM

Dora Boskovic in her book about Yataghans in the collection of the State Muzeum in Zagreb writes that the famous memoires of Baron Franjo von Trent (1711-1749, unit established allegedly in 1743) were a later forgery. Also, using European imid-18-th century iconography of travels through the Balkans with sketches of the exotically-looking locals with their even more exotic weapons, there is not a single yataghan in sight until at least end of 18th century. Thus, she doubts ( or dismisses altogether) the idea of von Trent arming his pandours with yataghans.

I also have my antennae twitching: something is not right about this yataghan, for the same reasons outlined earlier by others. The quality of the blade can be judged only by the current owner, but I cannot believe that any actual yataghan user would have put the handle backwards!
I also do not enjoy passing bad news, sorry....

Dmitry · 22nd July 2010, 11:37 PM

Here is a Pandur combination sword-pistol from the book by J.LUGOSI - KARDOK.
It has a yataghan-like blade, which he dates to the 1700s.

22nd July 2010, 01:25 PM	#1
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Early Pandor Yataghan sabre?? Hello all! We haven't posted in the discussion forums for a while and if truth be told have missed the buzz of the place! In the spirit of recent changes we have decided to start showing some of our more interesting and unusual pieces! Our first offering is this Yataghan. from previous posts we have learned it may have been used by Pandor units in service with the Austrian army. At some point, a long time ago, the fittings have been put on upside down! We look forward to hearing any comments, particularly on the hilt. We think it's an early example but it's unlike any we have seen before. As a weapon, it feels very heavy and functional! Andy Attached Images

22nd July 2010, 06:55 PM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	This is a curiosity! I just looked in my book on Austro-Hungarian swords and saw a Pandur sword with a very similarly-shaped yataghan style blade, but with a different hilt. Last edited by Dmitry; 22nd July 2010 at 08:47 PM.

22nd July 2010, 08:32 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	I must agree with Teodor, and this appears very much an item made 'in the style of' a yataghan type sword, which has some age, but most likely late 19th century. It has an almost theatrical appearance in the stylized elements, and the blade as noted seems like sheet stock, very heavy and thick looking. The curious guard, which is a block like interpretation of a weapon of the hirschfanger form in a grouping of these in a museum in Vienna, attributed to pandours, but probably actually of later provenance. One of these has the 'Vivat Pandur' motto on the blade, which was a popular slogan added much later in recognition of these troops which had by then achieved a dubious notoriety. The original pandour units of Baron von Trenck were assembled in 1744, though numbers of these units had been auxiliaries in Austrias Imperial armies since the early 18th century. As auxiliary units, these troops used exotic and often wild looking fashion and all types of 'oriental' type weaponry, operating as foragers and skirmishers that typically exceeded regulation. When thier depradations became out of control, they were disbanded and von Trenck was imprisoned, where he died in prison in 1749. The concept for these auxiliary units continued in similar application in a number of Continental armies, including Germany's 'Freikorps'. While the original pandour forces indeed had certain reference to a degree of use of the yataghans, these were among a wide range of variants of swords and hangers as these troops were privately raised and from regions in the Balkans and East Europe, with 'oriental' costume and weapons favored. For this item, that attribution seems improbable, though I very much enjoy seeing this very esoteric topic brought up!!! By the 19th century, certain exotic units existed as auxiliaries in a number of armies, but the 'vivat pandur' inscriptions were typically bravado placed on hunting weapons in my opinion...very much like 'Remember the Alamo' on some hunting type Bowies. This example seems far later than even the period of these units. Just my opinion, and I wish I could be more optimistic. I sure hate to welcome your post with not so good news. Best regards, Jim Attached Images

22nd July 2010, 10:42 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	double posting, sorry.... Last edited by ariel; 22nd July 2010 at 11:02 PM.

22nd July 2010, 11:37 PM	#8
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Here is a Pandur combination sword-pistol from the book by J.LUGOSI - KARDOK. It has a yataghan-like blade, which he dates to the 1700s. Attached Images

22nd July 2010, 07:48 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	I have a bad feeling for this one - the blade looks really rough, almost like it was cut from a sheet of steel. The guard and the rest of the hilt do not match, and I am not sure this could be explained away with a pandour attribution. I am sorry, but to me it looks like a composite piece. Regards, Teodor

22nd July 2010, 08:08 PM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	FWIW, the turned down guard is similar in shape to the European hunting swords of the 1770s-1790s, albeit a crude one.

22nd July 2010, 11:01 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dora Boskovic in her book about Yataghans in the collection of the State Muzeum in Zagreb writes that the famous memoires of Baron Franjo von Trent (1711-1749, unit established allegedly in 1743) were a later forgery. Also, using European imid-18-th century iconography of travels through the Balkans with sketches of the exotically-looking locals with their even more exotic weapons, there is not a single yataghan in sight until at least end of 18th century. Thus, she doubts ( or dismisses altogether) the idea of von Trent arming his pandours with yataghans. I also have my antennae twitching: something is not right about this yataghan, for the same reasons outlined earlier by others. The quality of the blade can be judged only by the current owner, but I cannot believe that any actual yataghan user would have put the handle backwards! I also do not enjoy passing bad news, sorry....