Help Sword info required

[sirupate]

Can anybody help me with what swords would have been carried in India in 1814;
1/ By the Royal Irish Dragoons
2/ Officers or men of the King's 53rd Regiment of Foot (Grenadiers)
3/ British Offcers of the Bengal Army

Any help would be much appreciated, cheers Simon

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Dragoons would probably be Heavy Cavalry at this time so the 1796 Pattern H.C. Troopers sword and the H.C. Officers version although I think there is a dress and undress version of the officers type.
I don't think the 53rd were designated as Grenadiers until later so if that is correct I would think the officers would have the 1796 Pattern Infantry Officers model and some may have used the 1803 Pattern Flank Officers sword, I don't think the men would have swords en masse but N.C.O's may have had a sword/sidearm.
As to the Bengal Army, I would assume the British Officers would carry the appropriate Infantry/Cavalry sword but I'm sure individual exceptions would have been reasonably common throughout the British Army of India. Hope this is of some use.
Regards,
Norman.

[sirupate]

Superb Norman, it is indeed very helpfull, as I have been re-searching the Anglo Nepali war, and come across a couple of occasions of Gurkha commanders seeking out British Officers and basically having a duel with them. The Gurkha commanders being described as using sabre, so they were probably using either a Tulwar or Shamshir type blade.
In another recorded incident the Royal Irish Dragoons over extended themselves, and in the Gorkha counter attack they had real problems dealing with the shield and khukuri combined, with their swords.
So I was very keen to fnd out what the British forces were using on those occasions.

Many thanks Simon

[Jim McDougall]

What a fascinating topic Simon! and I hope you'll keep us posted on your findings..in addition to hopefully others will join in on the research and share the information here.

Norman has as always, offered sound insight into the most plausibly present edged weapons during this period. I think his note on the use of the M1803 flank company officers sabre for the 53rd would be most likely. The officers in India were much more inclined toward sabres in the Raj, and the M1796 infantry officers sword was already wrought with disdain from the officers who used in in the Peninsula.
Dragoons indeed did use the heavy cavalry M1796 swords, and there were undress patterns for officers which if I recall had a pierced bowl type guard, something called a 'honeysuckle' pattern (?) I need to look this up, its been a very long time! I think the data is in 'Robson'.

Tulwars were of course well known in Nepal, and I would be reasonably certain the Gurkhas would have had them, especially officers or leaders.
The heavy cavalry M1796 patterns were terribly cumbersome, and definitely ill suited in combat against fast moving Gurkhas with kukris!! These swords were huge, unwieldy, and if I recall Robsons words correctly, one of the worst swords ever inflicted on the British army....not exactly a stellar review.
I still like them, incredible history!!! but for combat, especially in these circumstances....not good.

Now, the best topic of all, swords used by British officers of the Bengal Army.
In these times, British officers had already enjoyed extreme latitude in thier fashions including of course, weapons. While in most cases, many of the more rigidly regimented officers would have likely carried the patterns of sword typically in place at the time by regulation. However, in these times, the flamboyance of many officers led to the use of fascinating hybrid forms and native style weapons.
I have seen many tulwars carrying M1796 officers blades, and while it is often presumed these were captured blades used by Indian forces, the converse may be true, an officer mounting his blade in a local style hilt.
Of course, speculation, but as the Raj progessed, British officers adopted Indian fashion widely, leading to the colorful pageantry of the Native Indian regiments....Bengal Lancers et al!!

I look forward to progress with this topic Simon!!!

All the best,
Jim

[sirupate]

Many thanks for your input Jim, the current re-search all came about from the previous discussion about Khuda/Khunda.
Tulwar seemed to be the main type of sword in that period in Nepal, and with the higher ranked Rajput Nepali there was the occasional Shamshir, obviously other types were in use as well.
The problem the Dragoons seemd to have was the Goorkhas ability with the shield to deflect their swords, and the Gurkhas then closing the gap and either cutting them or stabbing them. The Dragoons quickly retreated, expecting support by the Sepoys of the 1/6th, they saw what was happening and ran as well, there ended up being 151 casualties, of which twelve died of their wounds or were killed outright.
That is very interesting what you say about the hilts, and it wouldn't surprise me if an eccentric BO did just that!
I must now go and find some 1796 heavy cavalry swords to see how they perform, I am hoping a local collector I know has a couple.

Thanks for all you help, cheers Simon

[Royston]

Gentlemen

What type of shields would the Gurkhas be using ?

Royston

[sirupate]

Hello Royston;

Generaly Dhal as in the picture below;


Cheers Simon

[sirupate]

Ok, I have managed to find out that it was the 8th (The King's Royal Irish) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons, and they would have been using the 1796 light cavalry sabre as per this link; 8th Royal Irish Officers 1796 light cavalry sabre

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Simon,
Youre of course very welcome, this really is interesting and I wish I could add more. It seems we have had discussions about the kukri a while back, and while I am really not very knowledgable on them, I think I mentioned that the late Byron Farwell had written some very comprehensive material on the Gurkhas. I'm sure you have already done that, but mentioned anyway.

The regiment being light dragoons, of course does differentiate from dragoons, which were typically heavy cavalry unless otherwise specified in this period. I think there have been a number of discussions on the use of cut vs. thrust in which the M1796 light cavalry sabre has been discussed. Using the heading 'British tulwars' in the search feature brings up some pretty detailed information on these.

I was going to suggest the many articles written by John Morgan in "Classic Arms and Militaria" on many of the British regulation swords, one was titled 'chopping wood' I think. Perhaps extracts or back issues can be obtained. I wish I had access to my files and notes on these! John was incredibly detailed in his writing, and sometimes got frustrated when the issue erred in the text etc. and would kindly send me annotations. As often the case, we havent communicated in years, but he is an incredibly knowledgable and helpful guy.

The title "The Face of Battle" by the late John Keegan contains magnificent text on Waterloo that offers amazing perspective into the often graphic dynamics and psychology experienced by combatants, and while of course not directly related, gives insight to the cavalry of the time in combat.

Mr. Farwell also wrote a wonderful article which I think was titled 'Johnny Gurk' or to that effect, applied with the utmost respect by British military to the Gurkhas who became some of the toughest fighters to fight by thier side after these times. I believe it was in "Military History" magazine. Sorry I cannot recall details offhand.

All the best,
Jim

[sirupate]

Hello Jim,

I have Byron Farwell's book 'The Gurkhas', a very well written piece. I haven't come across the article you mention that he did on the Gurkhas, I will certainley keep an eye out for it.

I have been going through the threads on here, and came across the Tulwar vs Sabre thread, which was very interesting, I am a fan of both cut and thrust, and believe a sword should be able to do both, as in this encounter; 'Lieutenant Boileau found himself engaged in a sword duel with Parsa Ram Thapa (probably using either a Tulwar or Shamshir), who thrust Lieutenant Boileau (using an 1803 Infantry Pattern Officers sword?) in the leg with his sabre'
I also came across the thread on Custer's swords, fabulous!! Being an ardent fan of Custer it was a great read.
Thank you for the leads on references about Swords, I willl do my best to follow them up, the re-search into Bristish swords is developing into quite a liking, as they have some nice shapes, plus the interest has always been lurking since I did fencing at school.
Once again many thanks for you help, cheers Simon