Crimean Tatars knives in the 18th century

mahratt · 19th October 2019, 09:43 PM

Guys, I’m reading the 18th century book in French with great difficulty and I have one question about weapons for forum participants who know French.
Can the word “Boutiques” in this particular text be translated like a workshop in which knives were made? Or it’s just “shops” (shops).

Claude Charles de Peysonnel. Traité sur le commerce de la mer Noire… : T. 1

Text:

La renommee des couteaux tartares est repandue dans tout l univers; ils font effectivement d une fort bonne trempe. d une
Batcheserai est la ville de Crimée d ou il en fort le plus : il y a dans cette Capitale cent boutiques de Couteliers : on en trouve aussi quelques-unes dans les autres villes de la...

Toutes ces boutiques fourniffent, annee commune environ quarte cents mille....

kai · 19th October 2019, 11:14 PM

Hello Dmitry,

Quote:

Toutes ces boutiques fourniffent, annee commune environ quarte cents mille....

Looks like "boutiques fournissent" to me - IMHO dealers. I hope any native speaker of French will come in to confirm!

Regards,
Kai

francantolin · 19th October 2019, 11:42 PM

Hello,
yes ''f'' or ''ff'' in old french was a ''s'' ''ss''
''fournissent'' is ok !!

Not the perfect answer sorry but just some clues:
Not easy:

Couteliers is the name of the knife maker but too of just a knife dealer...

Idem, boutique is more the name of a shop but it's too a little artisan-craftman shop were we make and sell products...

Note: If they provide four hundred thousand knives per years,
I guess/think the made them and don't just sold them.
( the Amazon of the 18th century

)

Mel H · 19th October 2019, 11:50 PM

Confusingly it was the same in England at that time, The double 's' was expressed as, 'ff'.
The word 'furnisher' could be used here in those times to describe a person who assembled swords or knives.

ariel · 20th October 2019, 03:11 AM

I saw this book many years ago for a short time. Can’t remember any pictures of those knives.

mahratt · 20th October 2019, 08:56 AM

Guys, thank you very much for your answers!
I am especially grateful to a colleague from France who answered me in the PM, confirming that the term "boutique" in the 18th century can be considered as a "workshop for production".
Frankly, I somewhat doubt the number of knives allegedly produced per year, which are produced in the Crimea. 400,000 knives is a lot. I think the author could not personally recount this amount, but was guided by information obtained from local oral sources. Also, reading the book Luigi Ferdinando Marsili "L'état militaire de l'Empire Ottoman ses progrès et sa décadence" 1732 and the book Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan "Description d'Ukranie, qui sont plusieurs provinces du Royaume de Pologuis les Depenne les Conten. confins de la Moscovie, insques aux limites de la Transilvanie. Ensemble leurs moeurs, façons de viures, et de faire la Guerre "1660 I could not find references to the fact that the Crimean Tatars are good masters ... Both authors who mention in in their books about the Crimean Tatars they write only that the Crimean Tatars are good soldiers and about cruel and wild manners Crimean Tatars.

Ian · 21st October 2019, 07:25 AM

Boutique = specialty shop
Coutelier = cutler; knife/sword maker or seller
Fournissent, from fournir = to furnish, provide, supply, deliver, dispense, etc.

So, les boutiques fournissent would be shops serving as suppliers, but not necessarily manufacturers, of these arms.

Philip · 22nd October 2019, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel H

Confusingly it was the same in England at that time, The double 's' was expressed as, 'ff'.
The word 'furnisher' could be used here in those times to describe a person who assembled swords or knives.

Hello, Mel
You're spot on about those double S's , or 'ff' as the case may be.

It seems that "furnisher" is a term more aptly applied to someone who supplies, purveys, or provides goods. In other words, a merchant.

A "furbisher" (note the "b") is someone who finishes or polishes a product. A craftsman or artisan. Thus, to "refurbish" means to renovate or restore something that's gotten a bit worn or tatty.

Based on what I've encountered in French books on arms and their manufacture, the distinction exists in very similar fashion in that lingo as well: fournisseur versus fourbisseur.

19th October 2019, 09:43 PM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Crimean Tatars knives in the 18th century Guys, I’m reading the 18th century book in French with great difficulty and I have one question about weapons for forum participants who know French. Can the word “Boutiques” in this particular text be translated like a workshop in which knives were made? Or it’s just “shops” (shops). Claude Charles de Peysonnel. Traité sur le commerce de la mer Noire… : T. 1 Text: La renommee des couteaux tartares est repandue dans tout l univers; ils font effectivement d une fort bonne trempe. d une Batcheserai est la ville de Crimée d ou il en fort le plus : il y a dans cette Capitale cent boutiques de Couteliers : on en trouve aussi quelques-unes dans les autres villes de la... Toutes ces boutiques fourniffent, annee commune environ quarte cents mille.... Attached Images

21st October 2019, 07:25 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Boutique = specialty shop Coutelier = cutler; knife/sword maker or seller Fournissent, from fournir = to furnish, provide, supply, deliver, dispense, etc. So, les boutiques fournissent would be shops serving as suppliers, but not necessarily manufacturers, of these arms. Last edited by Ian; 21st October 2019 at 07:36 AM.

19th October 2019, 11:42 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 871	Hello, yes ''f'' or ''ff'' in old french was a ''s'' ''ss'' ''fournissent'' is ok !! Not the perfect answer sorry but just some clues: Not easy: Couteliers is the name of the knife maker but too of just a knife dealer... Idem, boutique is more the name of a shop but it's too a little artisan-craftman shop were we make and sell products... Note: If they provide four hundred thousand knives per years, I guess/think the made them and don't just sold them. ( the Amazon of the 18th century )

19th October 2019, 11:50 PM	#4
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	Confusingly it was the same in England at that time, The double 's' was expressed as, 'ff'. The word 'furnisher' could be used here in those times to describe a person who assembled swords or knives.

20th October 2019, 03:11 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I saw this book many years ago for a short time. Can’t remember any pictures of those knives.

20th October 2019, 08:56 AM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Guys, thank you very much for your answers! I am especially grateful to a colleague from France who answered me in the PM, confirming that the term "boutique" in the 18th century can be considered as a "workshop for production". Frankly, I somewhat doubt the number of knives allegedly produced per year, which are produced in the Crimea. 400,000 knives is a lot. I think the author could not personally recount this amount, but was guided by information obtained from local oral sources. Also, reading the book Luigi Ferdinando Marsili "L'état militaire de l'Empire Ottoman ses progrès et sa décadence" 1732 and the book Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan "Description d'Ukranie, qui sont plusieurs provinces du Royaume de Pologuis les Depenne les Conten. confins de la Moscovie, insques aux limites de la Transilvanie. Ensemble leurs moeurs, façons de viures, et de faire la Guerre "1660 I could not find references to the fact that the Crimean Tatars are good masters ... Both authors who mention in in their books about the Crimean Tatars they write only that the Crimean Tatars are good soldiers and about cruel and wild manners Crimean Tatars.