Twisted mind

Kubur · 11th June 2019, 04:53 PM

Hi Guys,

It was a difficult quest but i got one...
A bit different from the one posted previously (one large fuller instead of three).
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...enian+yataghan
It seems that the blades are coming from shashka and then twisted by a twisted mind...

Kubur

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2019, 09:52 PM

No matter how weird it seems, these are among some of the most intriguing sword forms around, and who can forget our quest for the origins of the Black Sea yataghan (Laz bichagi, the term found thanks to Ariel).
It seems these are 'Armenian' but with the note that these ethnic classifications are often if not typically tenuous.

The diffusion of forms and diasporas of ethnic groups throughout these regions creates a difficult climate for reliably accurate classifications. In the 1941 article by Jacobsen & Triikman "Origins of the Shashka", the BSY was mentioned and illustrated in the context, and the source cited was an 1897 paper on the 'kardok' (=swords) by a Hungarian writer. This was focused on a number of these almost wildly recurved blade swords.
Many of these had cleft pommels and no guards, perhaps the reason why they were included in an article ostensibly on the shashka.
I wish I could recall the title of the Hungarian article but still have not located.

Whatever the case, these often dramatically recurved blades on these swords attributed from Anatolia, Transcausus and into the Caucusus seem to be a peculiarly similar genre. Even the so called Black Sea yataghan is known in Georgia sometimes with inscriptions in that script.

Some years ago in researching these (after I had found the 1941 article) I contacted Gerhard Seifert, who had shown one in his 1962 book "Schwert Degen Sabel"), and was listed as a Kurdish-Armenian yataghan. He told me he no longer had it, but that it was inscribed in a 'strange' script. I take it this was probably Georgian

I recall in those years thinking that perhaps these strangely recurved blade swords might have been atavistic nods to commemorate ancient forms, such as seen in Burton (1885, p.206, fig. 221), see attached. However this similarly recurved blade (but not as dramatic of course) sword apparently termed 'sapara' was not displayed until 1876. It was acquired by a British officer from a Bedouin at Nardin sometime prior.

These recurved 'Anatolian/Armenian' swords, like a number of ethnographic forms of such ancient or historic character seem to have been late interlopers into weapon groups in the end of 18th well into 19th c.
Even the shashka itself does not seem to be reliably represented earlier than end of the 18th c.
Possibly these might have been produced from iconographic sources for traditional and hereditary commemorative purposes much in the manner of Qajar revival arms and armor and others.

Bob A · 11th June 2019, 10:35 PM

Did anyone notice the laz bichaq on ebay? I made a desultory bid on it, but failed to win. It is noteworthy for the lack of the typical curve in the blade.

I'm unable to capture a picture from the site. I don't know if posting a link to the completed auction is permitted. I can PM the link to interested parties, I suppose, or fwd it to moderators if they can grab the image.

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2019, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

Did anyone notice the laz bichaq on ebay? I made a desultory bid on it, but failed to win. It is noteworthy for the lack of the typical curve in the blade.

I'm unable to capture a picture from the site. I don't know if posting a link to the completed auction is permitted. I can PM the link to interested parties, I suppose, or fwd it to moderators if they can grab the image.

Interesting note Bob. These variations of this curious genre of what we have come to consider Anatolian/Central Asian swords have varying forms of hilts, and the curvature of their blades. For example the Laz Bichagi is not always with the 'horned' hilt. ….I wish I could find the pics of some of these variations. That Hungarian article was fascinating, but that research was back in the 90s and I need some serious excavation to find that detail!

ariel · 12th June 2019, 12:43 AM

I am sure it has nothing to do with Armenians and Kurds.
Attached you will find a picture from a Russian book-album , a catalogue of the collection of Eastern weapons from the Russian Ethnographic Museum in St. Petersburg.

My train of thought uses 3 elements: the remarkable similarity to the North Anatolian Laz Bichaq; origin from Tashkent ( Uzbekistan) and the date of acquisition ( 1948).

I suggest this is a Meskheti Turks weapon.
Meskheti Turks lived in South Georgia, right on the border with Turkey and close to ( or even mixed with) Laz Turks. Both ethnicities were Turkish ( or islamized Georgians), both spoke Turkish language and had overlapping cultures and likely weapons.
In 1944 Soviet government forcibly exiled 115,000 of them to Central Asia ( Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kirghizstan), accusing the entire people of spying on behalf of Turkey. They were loaded into train cars and sent to their new destinations without food and warm clothes. In the 2-months long transit 20-30% died of cold and hunger ( mainly children, women and old people). This is identical to the fate of Chechens, Kabardians, Balkars, Kurds, Crimean Tatars et cetera.

The place of acquisition of this sword is Tashkent, a capital of Uzbekistan, where most Meskheti Turks were exiled without any right to change their place of living. The date of entry is listed as 1948, just 4 years after the exile. Russian " ethnographers" just likely bought it from one of the starving exiles , likely for pennies. Or got it as a confiscated item from the local security goons for a bottle of vodka.

I would gravely doubt the alleged name "Shoi", the attribution to Kazakhs and the alleged acquisition by the closed Museum of the Nations of USSR : the museum records and the authors of the book committed so many attributional errors that one cannot rely on any statement.

Jim McDougall · 12th June 2019, 03:16 AM

Excellent entry Ariel!! and thank you for sharing that source.
I think you are right, and the Armenian-Kurd notation was intended primarily with reference to the earlier classification of the Laz bichagi from 1941 in the Triikman-Jacobsen article and as Seifert called it in 1962.
Other entries called it a Transcaucasian yataghan.

I cannot think of the reference I was trying to cite that had images of various recurved 'Central Asian' swords, many with cleft pommels. It was by a Hungarian in 1897, I think it may have been Vichy(?) It was not the 'Karkok' book by Lugosi & Temesvary, but you know these Hungarian references. Can you think of it?

Kubur · 12th June 2019, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My train of thought uses 3 elements: the remarkable similarity to the North Anatolian Laz Bichaq; origin from Tashkent ( Uzbekistan) and the date of acquisition ( 1948).
I suggest this is a Meskheti Turks weapon.

Ok i take it as a Laz Bichaq variation, Meskheti Turk sword.

Difficult to find on the web, but i found another photo of a very similar model...

AvtoGaz · 29th June 2023, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am sure it has nothing to do with Armenians and Kurds.
Attached you will find a picture from a Russian book-album , a catalogue of the collection of Eastern weapons from the Russian Ethnographic Museum in St. Petersburg.

My train of thought uses 3 elements: the remarkable similarity to the North Anatolian Laz Bichaq; origin from Tashkent ( Uzbekistan) and the date of acquisition ( 1948).

I suggest this is a Meskheti Turks weapon.
Meskheti Turks lived in South Georgia, right on the border with Turkey and close to ( or even mixed with) Laz Turks. Both ethnicities were Turkish ( or islamized Georgians), both spoke Turkish language and had overlapping cultures and likely weapons.
In 1944 Soviet government forcibly exiled 115,000 of them to Central Asia ( Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kirghizstan), accusing the entire people of spying on behalf of Turkey. They were loaded into train cars and sent to their new destinations without food and warm clothes. In the 2-months long transit 20-30% died of cold and hunger ( mainly children, women and old people). This is identical to the fate of Chechens, Kabardians, Balkars, Kurds, Crimean Tatars et cetera.

The place of acquisition of this sword is Tashkent, a capital of Uzbekistan, where most Meskheti Turks were exiled without any right to change their place of living. The date of entry is listed as 1948, just 4 years after the exile. Russian " ethnographers" just likely bought it from one of the starving exiles , likely for pennies. Or got it as a confiscated item from the local security goons for a bottle of vodka.

I would gravely doubt the alleged name "Shoi", the attribution to Kazakhs and the alleged acquisition by the closed Museum of the Nations of USSR : the museum records and the authors of the book committed so many attributional errors that one cannot rely on any statement.

May I perhaps suggest a Hemshin Armenian origin. The Hemshins live mostly in Turkey but a group of them also used to live in Adjara in the Georgian SSR, but were deported to Central Asia at the same time as the Meskhetian Turks. While the Meskhetian Turks lived further inland in Samtskhe, the Hemshin Armenians lived right next to the Laz and Adjar people in the mountainous highlands of the black sea region and had a much more similar culture to them. Indeed, most photos of Meskhetian Turks show them with rather typical Caucasian style weapons and clothing, not Pontic.

I feel this explanation accounts for everything you mentioned plus its previous attribution as being "Armenian".

Nihl · 15th June 2019, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

Did anyone notice the laz bichaq on ebay? I made a desultory bid on it, but failed to win. It is noteworthy for the lack of the typical curve in the blade.

Since it was brought up, here are some pictures of the aforementioned laz bichaq, if anyone is interested.

Jim McDougall · 15th June 2019, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihl

Since it was brought up, here are some pictures of the aforementioned laz bichaq, if anyone is interested.

Thank you very much Nihl, apparently while we brought this up in discussion it seems we did not include an image to illustrate the form. It is of course of interest as it has been used in comparison to the examples we are discussing.
Well done and thank again!

Kubur · 15th June 2019, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you very much Nihl, apparently while we brought this up in discussion it seems we did not include an image to illustrate the form. It is of course of interest as it has been used in comparison to the examples we are discussing.
Well done and thank again!

Hi Guys

Then I have a question, the laz bichaq, is a particular blade or a particular hilt??

Nihl do you have a stamp on your blade?

11th June 2019, 04:53 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Twisted mind Hi Guys, It was a difficult quest but i got one... A bit different from the one posted previously (one large fuller instead of three). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...enian+yataghan It seems that the blades are coming from shashka and then twisted by a twisted mind... Kubur Attached Images

11th June 2019, 09:52 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	No matter how weird it seems, these are among some of the most intriguing sword forms around, and who can forget our quest for the origins of the Black Sea yataghan (Laz bichagi, the term found thanks to Ariel). It seems these are 'Armenian' but with the note that these ethnic classifications are often if not typically tenuous. The diffusion of forms and diasporas of ethnic groups throughout these regions creates a difficult climate for reliably accurate classifications. In the 1941 article by Jacobsen & Triikman "Origins of the Shashka", the BSY was mentioned and illustrated in the context, and the source cited was an 1897 paper on the 'kardok' (=swords) by a Hungarian writer. This was focused on a number of these almost wildly recurved blade swords. Many of these had cleft pommels and no guards, perhaps the reason why they were included in an article ostensibly on the shashka. I wish I could recall the title of the Hungarian article but still have not located. Whatever the case, these often dramatically recurved blades on these swords attributed from Anatolia, Transcausus and into the Caucusus seem to be a peculiarly similar genre. Even the so called Black Sea yataghan is known in Georgia sometimes with inscriptions in that script. Some years ago in researching these (after I had found the 1941 article) I contacted Gerhard Seifert, who had shown one in his 1962 book "Schwert Degen Sabel"), and was listed as a Kurdish-Armenian yataghan. He told me he no longer had it, but that it was inscribed in a 'strange' script. I take it this was probably Georgian I recall in those years thinking that perhaps these strangely recurved blade swords might have been atavistic nods to commemorate ancient forms, such as seen in Burton (1885, p.206, fig. 221), see attached. However this similarly recurved blade (but not as dramatic of course) sword apparently termed 'sapara' was not displayed until 1876. It was acquired by a British officer from a Bedouin at Nardin sometime prior. These recurved 'Anatolian/Armenian' swords, like a number of ethnographic forms of such ancient or historic character seem to have been late interlopers into weapon groups in the end of 18th well into 19th c. Even the shashka itself does not seem to be reliably represented earlier than end of the 18th c. Possibly these might have been produced from iconographic sources for traditional and hereditary commemorative purposes much in the manner of Qajar revival arms and armor and others. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th June 2019 at 10:31 PM.

12th June 2019, 12:43 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am sure it has nothing to do with Armenians and Kurds. Attached you will find a picture from a Russian book-album , a catalogue of the collection of Eastern weapons from the Russian Ethnographic Museum in St. Petersburg. My train of thought uses 3 elements: the remarkable similarity to the North Anatolian Laz Bichaq; origin from Tashkent ( Uzbekistan) and the date of acquisition ( 1948). I suggest this is a Meskheti Turks weapon. Meskheti Turks lived in South Georgia, right on the border with Turkey and close to ( or even mixed with) Laz Turks. Both ethnicities were Turkish ( or islamized Georgians), both spoke Turkish language and had overlapping cultures and likely weapons. In 1944 Soviet government forcibly exiled 115,000 of them to Central Asia ( Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kirghizstan), accusing the entire people of spying on behalf of Turkey. They were loaded into train cars and sent to their new destinations without food and warm clothes. In the 2-months long transit 20-30% died of cold and hunger ( mainly children, women and old people). This is identical to the fate of Chechens, Kabardians, Balkars, Kurds, Crimean Tatars et cetera. The place of acquisition of this sword is Tashkent, a capital of Uzbekistan, where most Meskheti Turks were exiled without any right to change their place of living. The date of entry is listed as 1948, just 4 years after the exile. Russian " ethnographers" just likely bought it from one of the starving exiles , likely for pennies. Or got it as a confiscated item from the local security goons for a bottle of vodka. I would gravely doubt the alleged name "Shoi", the attribution to Kazakhs and the alleged acquisition by the closed Museum of the Nations of USSR : the museum records and the authors of the book committed so many attributional errors that one cannot rely on any statement. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 12th June 2019 at 12:54 AM.

11th June 2019, 10:35 PM	#3
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	Did anyone notice the laz bichaq on ebay? I made a desultory bid on it, but failed to win. It is noteworthy for the lack of the typical curve in the blade. I'm unable to capture a picture from the site. I don't know if posting a link to the completed auction is permitted. I can PM the link to interested parties, I suppose, or fwd it to moderators if they can grab the image.

12th June 2019, 03:16 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Excellent entry Ariel!! and thank you for sharing that source. I think you are right, and the Armenian-Kurd notation was intended primarily with reference to the earlier classification of the Laz bichagi from 1941 in the Triikman-Jacobsen article and as Seifert called it in 1962. Other entries called it a Transcaucasian yataghan. I cannot think of the reference I was trying to cite that had images of various recurved 'Central Asian' swords, many with cleft pommels. It was by a Hungarian in 1897, I think it may have been Vichy(?) It was not the 'Karkok' book by Lugosi & Temesvary, but you know these Hungarian references. Can you think of it?