A folding butt carbine

fernando · 2nd December 2012, 04:03 PM

I call it a carbine, but am note sure if this is the right term.
It has a calibre of approx. 17 mm; the barrel measures 43 cms; the total length is 74 cms and 54 cms. when folded.
Said to be a XVIII century Brescia work; i would love to hear more about these guns, namely and specialy who would be the maker... or the maker's school.
Thank you for your comments

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fernando · 2nd December 2012, 04:04 PM

some more

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dana_w · 2nd December 2012, 05:22 PM

A folding stock Miquelet, interesting, very interesting. Obviously, a patilla (foot of the animal /rooster) style llave española (Spanish Lock), aka Miquelet. It looks like the battery has a removable / replaceable face. There don't appear to be any makers marks on the barrel or lock. Sometimes the inside of the lock is marked. The style of the butt looks like early Catalan. The half octagonal, half round barrel has both pins and barrel bands. There is a side-plate, but no trigger guard. The screw for the barrel tang looks like it enters the stock from in front on the trigger. The floral designs and that bird figure sure don't look Moorish, nor do the non-matching floral decorations on the lock bridals.

Is this yours fernando? Do you have any photos of the side-plate?

fernando · 3rd December 2012, 12:31 AM

Thanks for the input, Dana
Yes it is mine; some swap i made last Friday, with some extra from my side

Mind you, patilla (or patilha in portuguese) refers to the hammer toe as its shape resembles human hair sideburns.
Yes, the battery appears to have a replaceable face.
I didn't yet decide to dismount the lock foor possible interior marks.
No the the butt style is not Catalan but Brescian. The catalan butt looks more boot/foot like.
No there are not pins fixing the barrel to the stock, only bands. Maybe you are noticing some wood imperfections.
The is or was no trigger guard; both side and counter plate pictures will be posted soon.
Yes the screw that holds the tang is in the 'inverted' position, a method also used in early Portuguese examples.
I agree that the decoration doesn't look Moorish at all. On the other hand, it is known that the patilla (Miquelet) lock was brought to Italy during Spanish domination ... if i put it correctly.

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dana_w · 3rd December 2012, 01:26 AM

Thanks for the additional photos fernando. I am looking forward to learning more about your new prize.

I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese. What little I know,(or think I know) comes from my father F.E. Williams (aka Jack Williams), Keith Neal and Dr. Lavin. On page 166 of Lavin's book, he says “Here 'pie' is used by Espinar in the same sense as 'patilla' in his chapter on the gunlock. The difference between the two is slight; pie normally refers to the human foot, while pata, or its diminutive, patilla, is the foot of the animal or object.”

On Page 190 Lavin talks about the Italian influence on the Castilian style. I am sure you are right about the more fish tail like Berescian stock now that I have looked at this chapter again. I do have a matchlock carbine supposedly made in Ripoll that has a stock much like the one you show here. Don't some early Catalan style butts have a much less pronounced “toe”?

The photos fooled me about the pins. I have some barrels with only pins, some with pins and barrel bands and some with only barrel bands. I hear that barrel bands only means it was made later.

That is one fascinating weapon you have there. I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.

fernando · 8th December 2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dana_w

...I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.

No marks ... but i like it though.

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broadaxe · 3rd December 2012, 08:52 AM

I had been recently in Malta, where I visited the famous Palace Armoury - a true must for every collector and researcher of arms & armor. there are some very similar guns on display, they call them "Scavezzo". According the text these were used by coach drivers and poachers. Sorry for the bad photos, the result of taking hundreds under unfriendly light conditions, and no flash.

fernando · 3rd December 2012, 07:15 PM

Let's see, Dana:

I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. That one is an essential I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese I am lucky on that one . What little I know,(or think I know) comes from my father F.E. Williams (aka Jack Williams), Keith Neal and Dr. Lavin. This clavina was acquired in one of Keith Neal best friends On page 166 of Lavin's book, he says “Here 'pie' is used by Espinar in the same sense as 'patilla' in his chapter on the gunlock. The difference between the two is slight; pie normally refers to the human foot, while pata, or its diminutive, patilla, is the foot of the animal or object.” No, not that. "Pie" means "foot" and "patilla" refers to the shape of the foot. Patilla (or patilha in portuguese) is a word of different origin and is not the diminutive of pata (hoof)On Page 190 Lavin talks about the Italian influence on the Castilian style. I am sure you are right about the more fish tail like Berescian stock now that I have looked at this chapter again. I do have a matchlock carbine supposedly made in Ripoll that has a stock much like the one you show here. Don't some early Catalan style butts have a much less pronounced “toe”? Could be; i just showed the only one i have.The photos fooled me about the pins. I have some barrels with only pins, some with pins and barrel bands and some with only barrel bands. I hear that barrel bands only means it was made later. Yes, that would be true ... not counting with ingenious smiths that presented advanced technologies much before general appearance. I had the previlege to see some such examples the last weekend, in a luxury collection.That is one fascinating weapon you have there. I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.
I took it to the workshop this morning to fix a loose screw in the folding mechanism. The smith dismounted the lock just for fun. It has no marks except for a large X. It has a rather well developed mechanism. Next week i will post pictures of it.

fernando · 3rd December 2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

I had been recently in Malta, where I visited the famous Palace Armoury - a true must for every collector and researcher of arms & armor. there are some very similar guns on display, they call them "Scavezzo". According the text these were used by coach drivers and poachers. Sorry for the bad photos, the result of taking hundreds under unfriendly light conditions, and no flash.

Oh yes, Malta

I haven't yet visited that museum because low cost companies don't fly to such destination.

Thanks for posting images of something of the sort; it is always rather comforting to see a piece similar to ours.
It all starts to make sense; i was told this model is called over here a stage coach 'clavina' (a term/style that preceded the 'modern' carabina).
On the other hand, the meaning of 'Scavezzo', besides the basic attribution of the term (broken, from to break or to brake up) is the idiomatic name to connotate these guns as prohibited while insidious, with a stock hinged in two parts, to possibilitate for the butt to join the forearm, to easily conceal it.

1. agg. Scavezzato, cioè rotto, spezzato. In partic., arma s., fucile s., o, come sost., scavezzo, arma da fuoco portatile, proibita in quanto arma insidiosa, con la cassa in due pezzi incernierati in modo da poter ripiegare il calcio sul fusto per meglio nasconderla.

Well, i will assume that my fine example would have belonged in the stage coah of wealthy traveler, and not in the pocket of a poacher's cloak

Thanks again for your input, Broadaxe

2nd December 2012, 04:03 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A folding butt carbine I call it a carbine, but am note sure if this is the right term. It has a calibre of approx. 17 mm; the barrel measures 43 cms; the total length is 74 cms and 54 cms. when folded. Said to be a XVIII century Brescia work; i would love to hear more about these guns, namely and specialy who would be the maker... or the maker's school. Thank you for your comments . . Attached Images

2nd December 2012, 04:04 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	some more . Attached Images

2nd December 2012, 05:22 PM	#3
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	A folding stock Miquelet, interesting, very interesting. Obviously, a patilla (foot of the animal /rooster) style llave española (Spanish Lock), aka Miquelet. It looks like the battery has a removable / replaceable face. There don't appear to be any makers marks on the barrel or lock. Sometimes the inside of the lock is marked. The style of the butt looks like early Catalan. The half octagonal, half round barrel has both pins and barrel bands. There is a side-plate, but no trigger guard. The screw for the barrel tang looks like it enters the stock from in front on the trigger. The floral designs and that bird figure sure don't look Moorish, nor do the non-matching floral decorations on the lock bridals. Is this yours fernando? Do you have any photos of the side-plate? Last edited by dana_w; 3rd December 2012 at 01:33 AM.

3rd December 2012, 12:31 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks for the input, Dana Yes it is mine; some swap i made last Friday, with some extra from my side Mind you, patilla (or patilha in portuguese) refers to the hammer toe as its shape resembles human hair sideburns. Yes, the battery appears to have a replaceable face. I didn't yet decide to dismount the lock foor possible interior marks. No the the butt style is not Catalan but Brescian. The catalan butt looks more boot/foot like. No there are not pins fixing the barrel to the stock, only bands. Maybe you are noticing some wood imperfections. The is or was no trigger guard; both side and counter plate pictures will be posted soon. Yes the screw that holds the tang is in the 'inverted' position, a method also used in early Portuguese examples. I agree that the decoration doesn't look Moorish at all. On the other hand, it is known that the patilla (Miquelet) lock was brought to Italy during Spanish domination ... if i put it correctly. . Attached Images

3rd December 2012, 08:52 AM	#7
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I had been recently in Malta, where I visited the famous Palace Armoury - a true must for every collector and researcher of arms & armor. there are some very similar guns on display, they call them "Scavezzo". According the text these were used by coach drivers and poachers. Sorry for the bad photos, the result of taking hundreds under unfriendly light conditions, and no flash. Attached Images

3rd December 2012, 01:26 AM	#5
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Thanks for the additional photos fernando. I am looking forward to learning more about your new prize. I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese. What little I know,(or think I know) comes from my father F.E. Williams (aka Jack Williams), Keith Neal and Dr. Lavin. On page 166 of Lavin's book, he says “Here 'pie' is used by Espinar in the same sense as 'patilla' in his chapter on the gunlock. The difference between the two is slight; pie normally refers to the human foot, while pata, or its diminutive, patilla, is the foot of the animal or object.” On Page 190 Lavin talks about the Italian influence on the Castilian style. I am sure you are right about the more fish tail like Berescian stock now that I have looked at this chapter again. I do have a matchlock carbine supposedly made in Ripoll that has a stock much like the one you show here. Don't some early Catalan style butts have a much less pronounced “toe”? The photos fooled me about the pins. I have some barrels with only pins, some with pins and barrel bands and some with only barrel bands. I hear that barrel bands only means it was made later. That is one fascinating weapon you have there. I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.

3rd December 2012, 07:15 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let's see, Dana: I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. That one is an essential I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese I am lucky on that one . What little I know,(or think I know) comes from my father F.E. Williams (aka Jack Williams), Keith Neal and Dr. Lavin. This clavina was acquired in one of Keith Neal best friends On page 166 of Lavin's book, he says “Here 'pie' is used by Espinar in the same sense as 'patilla' in his chapter on the gunlock. The difference between the two is slight; pie normally refers to the human foot, while pata, or its diminutive, patilla, is the foot of the animal or object.” No, not that. "Pie" means "foot" and "patilla" refers to the shape of the foot. Patilla (or patilha in portuguese) is a word of different origin and is not the diminutive of pata (hoof)On Page 190 Lavin talks about the Italian influence on the Castilian style. I am sure you are right about the more fish tail like Berescian stock now that I have looked at this chapter again. I do have a matchlock carbine supposedly made in Ripoll that has a stock much like the one you show here. Don't some early Catalan style butts have a much less pronounced “toe”? Could be; i just showed the only one i have.The photos fooled me about the pins. I have some barrels with only pins, some with pins and barrel bands and some with only barrel bands. I hear that barrel bands only means it was made later. Yes, that would be true ... not counting with ingenious smiths that presented advanced technologies much before general appearance. I had the previlege to see some such examples the last weekend, in a luxury collection.That is one fascinating weapon you have there. I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock. I took it to the workshop this morning to fix a loose screw in the folding mechanism. The smith dismounted the lock just for fun. It has no marks except for a large X. It has a rather well developed mechanism. Next week i will post pictures of it.