Trebizond arms with huge amount of corals?

[wolviex]

Hello All!

I just wanted to provoke a new discussion about parade weapons from todays Turkey territories - sabres, kinjals, firearms with hundreds of red corals and green and blue chalcedons set on scabbards, handles, stocks etc. in shape of rosettes,flowers, in rows and other geometrical configurations. I wonder about place of origin of these weapons. Here in Poland they are placed as from Trebizond - Turkish country on the coast of the Black Sea, in medieval times with his own rulers, then incorporated by Ottoman Empire. They're are probably from the first half of the 19th century, but it seems to me that some of these weapons might be even from the 2nd half of the 18th c. Next what bothering me is their rarity or non-rarity. I wonder how many of such objects we know from other museums, collections, auctions, and how are they noticed - as good and valuable or just as a hang-walls.

Regards!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Wolviex, it is always a pleasure to see your pictures, and it is an interesting question you ask. Unfortunately I can’t participate in the discussion, as my interests go in another direction, but I think you will be surprised how many of these kind of weapons you will find, and to my opinion they were court/parade weapons.

Jens

[VANDOO]

I WOULD AGREE WITH JENS THEY WERE FOR COURT, PARADE OR ANY OTHER SPECIAL OCCASION BUT WERE USUALLY FUNCTIONAL WEAPONS. THEY MAY HAVE DEVELOPED BECAUSE OF VALUE OR BELIEFS IN POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO THE CORAL AND STONES OR COLORS USED OR JUST BECAUSE IT LOOKED GOOD TO THE LOCALS. IT WOULD CERTIANLY BE A SYMBOL OF POWER AND WEALTH WHEN WORN ON PUBLIC OCCASIONS AND MAY HAVE BECOME THE FASHION AT SOME PERIOD OF TIME OVER A WIDER AREA.
MOST OF THIS TYPE OF DECORATION HAS NEVER APPEALED TO ME BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE SILVER (WHITE METAL) LOOKS. THE EXAMPLES YOU SHOW ARE MUCH BETTER THAN WHAT IS USUALLY SEEN AND I DO LIKE THEM BUT IN MY OPINION THEY WOULD LOOK BETTER IN STERLING SILVER.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michal,
Absolutely breathtaking weapons! Although many would consider such weapons ostentatious, one cannot deny the beauty of the work, and I especially admire the corals. It seems these corals are seen on a number of Ottoman produced weapons, and these were often produced as presentation weapons for influential Ottoman figures in the considerable detente between regions under their suzereignty and European powers in the latter 18th-early 19th centuries. In the display catalogue for the Richard Wagner collection privately published some years ago, such weapons are seen, one miguelet completely encrusted in corals, and presented by the Dey of Algiers in the early 19th c. It is noted these weapons were often crafted with turquoises, rubies and garnets in the taste of Russian and Polish courts, presumably in their favor.

Dr. Zygulski in his essay "Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and Thier Provenance" (1979, Elgood, "Islamic Arms and Armour" p.213), notes that Poland developed an affinity for certain Turkish styles in about the second half of the 18th century, and Turkish arms had become exceedingly popular among the gentry from the many trophies acquired. It is suggested that many of these weapons were created in Istanbul, while many sabres with drooping quillons made in India of karabela form, and known as 'indyczka' (Indian like) were available.

I would presume the dominantly coral items somewhat rare as that motif seems somewhat unusual, and that suggestion was made in a discussion some time ago, possibly by Mr. Wagner when discussing the Algerian miguelet in his collection.

I am under the impression these sumptuous sabres, and such like decorated weapons in general, are presentation items of probably late 18th to mid 19th century, and likely were mounted in Turkey, and purchased for such use by influential Ottoman figures and thier courts.

All the best,
Jim

[Mark]

Is the reason for the seed or teardrop shape of the corals known? Virtually every weapon decorated in this way that I have seen has the coral in particular with this shape.

[B.I]

hi michal,
i'm afraid i row in the same boat as jens, so can only offer a hatful of images (you did mention the rarity and existence of similar pieces). i too believe these to be 'parade' pieces, although some are known to have older blades. i have always thought the indian equivalent are jade hilts daggers - same quality in blades but hilts move them away from the battlefield and into the court.

hi jim

[wolviex]

I just figured out another and most popular name for country from where (as I suppose) these weapons come:
TREBIZOND = TRABZON

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Very interesting subject indeed, Michal... One comes across them slowly but consistently. What I can add for sure is that such decoration was never popular in regimental version but rather in presentation to high rank officers.
In less ceremonial and more bellicose forms I could definitely tell you that, for sure, they were a lot more popular with the irregulars or brigands of the empire, from pandours and hajdouks to the bash-bouzouks, at least that’s to whom most of the ones that bear proofs of war have been normally attributed to. Most of them date between 17th to 19th centuries, with the peak somewhere in the middle. I believe I eve recall some poetry or folktales talking about a famous Romanian haiduc (hajdouk) from Wallachia that had its famous hand gun fashioned like it.
They were popular ornaments and their usage was not restricted to weapons of course, one would fond them on other ittems like bags, scabbards or belts.
Funny enough I remember my mother had a necklace from her mother, a full string of coralite, which if sectionate well would make perfect cabochon decoration for a weapon. (hmmm.... devilish grin...)
In Western European cultures for example when such decorations were spotted, if I remember correctly, the weapons were known as “a la Turque”, meaning Ottoman style. I very much agree with the europinion that they are true Ottoman influence; what better proof one could ask for but to observe exactly where they come from: the Porte and its sphere of influence and trade. Therefore, you can see them all over it, from the nimchas and Kabhyl muskets of Maghrib and Algeria to swords from Russia, Arnaouti miquelets, Transylvanian and Hungarian palas or Caucasian qamas and I am sure your beloved Poland is no exception.
As a personal observation, pertinent I hope, however, nowhere near being a "rule of thumb" but worth considering is that decoration coralite when from Northen Africa (Maghrib, Algeria & Egypt) tend to be tear shaped, European (from Istanbul to Budapest) tend to be round pea like to ovoid, whilst Middle Eastern (including most of Anatolia) to Caucasus favored ovoid to linear ones... That applies just to the coralite not really to the turquoise and its keen.
Its hard to say how many are from Trabzon or even how many are strictly Turk, I preffer referring to them in a little more broad terms according to the times, it wasn’t much of Trebizond or Turkey, it was the whole empire’s fashion, it was Ottoman but definitely this region deserve its praise on the matter but like anything beautiful and fashionable, it tends to be quickly adopted and then produced somewhere else (ex. Damascus steel, recurved bow, soap opera and noodles)...

[erlikhan]

Most of the photos posted above belong to qamas,daggers and swords of semi-nomadicTurcoman origin, starting from Azerbaijan's Caspian sea shore and Northern Iraq to west, well through west-central Turkey,more concentrated in Eastern Turkey. Four of the swords are of Sultan Murad 4 (1630s).The pistoles which look as if covered with huge corals and in fact NOT coralled. The red material is old form of acrylic and I doubt about their Algerian origin very much. Once one of them was auctioned in an auction house here, and an Iranian dealer explained me it was Iran originated style, once widely used and still known method of coral or turquoise looking acrylic, even offered me to enter the auction and to win that pistol,so that he would take it to Iran, and make it copied exactly in numbers like 20-30 to sell abroad
Coralled and turquoised daggers were existing in village houses traditionally in western-central Turkey till 1960's, in miniaturized and simplyfied forms, red glasses started to be used instead of corals in 20th century. I have such miniature samples but still old,with real corals and will post their pictures when I find time.
regards

[Radu Transylvanicus]

No pun intended but is a little hard to draw the conclusion that they are mostly acrylic coral imitation, specially with high official presentation weapons, high rank officers or even sultans, furthermore when in many cases we refer to years 1600s... Later examples I wouldn’t doubt, just like bakelite and vulcanite embedded hilts past 19th century in Europe or "a la European" fashion including Ottoman...
Arabians claim the same about red coral; see even today the Oman jewelry, I personally own one, of silver aliage and red coralite beads...
The so-called "fire coral" is was most soughtafter coralite, which needed no dying. Most examples are from Tibet, Nepal and Bhutan.
We also have to make the clear distinction between coralites and carnelian, the later was easily mistaken due to its resemblance, it comes not from a living creature but rather a gem, a crystal like chalcedony. Funny enough the word chalcedony comes from the name of a Greek town in Asia Minor (Wikipedia).
The carnelian was used on large scale for same purposes and its frequently seen yataghan hilt mounted on silver and ivory.

[erlikhan]

I attach the pictures of the ones which especially look exactly like the one I had seen in the auction, and had chance to examine very closely. None of the red pieces looked like coral, and none had common coral age wear which show itself by little holes and color change. Color was too homogenous and fresh red. Corals can fade from none to less or more,partially or completely to pink, even through yellow-light brown by age and its shape deform, less or more shrinkage and minor holes. Some of the pistols like the ones with small pieces can have real corals but especially the ones I attach must not be coral or some other organic remnants. Of course, acrylic is the term which others told me, the definition can be wrong and something different perhaps. I would appreciate if there is any other suggestion. It can be true that they were used by nobles, even in Topkapi palace museum there is one exactly the same with these ones, but its red decoration doesnt look like real coral as well. I think, to carve and shape corals in so big and curving fragments without damaging it was very hard or impossible, and no way left else than to imitate it, if someone loved coral decoration so much and wished to have such an item. Like gold imitation gilding on cheap copper to serve sultans instead of using real solid gold to produce items.