Dating of chambers for breechloading cannon

[E Farrell]

I am searching for information on how best to establish date and origins of chambers for breechloading cannon.

I am currently working with a breech block (divorced from its cannon), and I can date its last use to the first quarter of the 18th century (1700-1725) aboard a ship of either English or French crew with absolute certainty. In the absence of a corresponding breachloader, I cannot say if the use was with a swivel gun, or alone as a signal piece. It was recovered with tampion in place and gunpowder within, so there was some active use.

Given the date and possible usages, it seems at least moderately likely that the chamber itself is older than the context in which it was found, so I am attempting to determine an approximate date and country of manufacture (if this should prove possible).

Unfortunately, I am unable to post images of the piece in question. However, the chamber I am working with is virtually identical to one posted at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...45&postcount=3 (specifically the uppermost of two in the image at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=35187&stc=1)

Overall proportion, handle attachment, touch-hole style and touch-hole placement are all identical. The one in image is attributed as 15th century German. I have contacted Bayerisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt, and their attribution is without basis in comparison to knowns, but is simply a repetition of what the museum was told when they purchased the item. I am trying to find further evidence to confirm or deny that attribution.

To point, how would you all go about assigning a date to an object like this? I have the volume on artillery from Mary Rose, but have found no direct comparison. I am unaware of any other publications with a firm date range and a good selection of breechloading cannon and chambers. Are there other published sources that anyone knows of?

It is my general impression that earlier breech blocks are longer and narrower in proportion, but I am not sufficiently knowledgeable in this area to be even remotely sure of that. Is there any such definable progression of form through time? Has anyone written a typology of breech blocks?

And for anyone with a reasonable knowledge of and affection for breechloaders, what date would you assign the chamber in that image if there were no museum plaque to tell you?


Any information and opinions you all may have are welcome... I have been beating my head against this one for months now, and I need a fresh bit of thought on the matter.

[fernando]

A rather challenging question. It does need someone with significant knowledge to provide information on such subject. Until now i have gone myself as far as realizing that, the dimensions of chambers as well as their profile, only had to do with the caliber and type of the different breechloading pieces.
A forum member that could potentially explore such area (Matchlock) is now deceased; i wonder whether there are other members who are in possession of such data.
Meanwhile if you use the search button you could find further details on breechloaders, although not necessarily what you are looking for.

[E Farrell]

Originally Posted by fernando

Meanwhile if you use the search button you could find further details on breechloaders, although not necessarily what you are looking for.

With this whole line of inquiry I am in the awkward situation of asking a question which I am not certain has an answer. In fact the further I look, the more I suspect I cannot definitively narrow the date range on form alone past late 15th-early 18th centuries.

But the worst that happens is that no one else has an answer either, I keep the wider date range, and nothing is lost by the attempt.

[fernando]

I regret that no sources show up to provide some information on this theme; perhaps because it is so specific and not so much explored.
I have to contact some local specialists in artillery but unfornutaley one has his email disabled, the other is deceased and for te other i dion't manage to ge his contact.
I here attach pictures of two early pieces; one a 'cão' (dog) from the end 14th beg.-15th century, in exhibition in the Portuguese Navy Museum and the other, his successor, a 'berço Manuelino' (so called cradle of King Dom Manuel) circa 1500, from the collection of Riner Daehnhardt.
Although they have not measurements notes, one can see that proportionaly their chambers are not that narrow nor that long.
I am not sure that the second chamber belongs in the berço but, if not, the period will be the same.



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[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank for adding this excellent example!!
While I have little knowledge on this particular subject, it is fascinating to see what these actually looked like!!

[Marcus den toom]

Very little time nowadays to do some sound research on this subject, but Michl did extîensive work on this in his breech loading thread.

Dating these breech blocks has mostly to do with the same stylistic criteria as with normal cannons i think. Also the way they where made, wrought or cast? Cast blocks seem to appear at the 1480-1500. The handle on older specimens is also only fastened at the rear. And lastly the older breeches tapers at the mouth and later versions seem to have a socket for sealing it better into the barrel.

No good evidence to back up any of this but it seems logical to me when looking at the pictures in the breech loading thread.

[E Farrell]

Originally Posted by fernando

I regret that no sources show up to provide some information on this theme; perhaps because it is so specific and not so much explored.
I have to contact some local specialists in artillery but unfornutaley one has his email disabled, the other is deceased and for te other i dion't manage to ge his contact.
I here attach pictures of two early pieces; one a 'cão' (dog) from the end 14th beg.-15th century, in exhibition in the Portuguese Navy Museum and the other, his successor, a 'berço Manuelino' (so called cradle of King Dom Manuel) circa 1500, from the collection of Riner Daehnhardt.
Although they have not measurements notes, one can see that proportionaly their chambers are not that narrow nor that long.
I am not sure that the second chamber belongs in the berço but, if not, the period will be the same.

Thank for fernando! If these are 15th cCE or earlier, then that is a pretty firm 'no' to the question of whether a typological date is possible. The more I (and others) have searched, the more evidence has come up for this conclusion.

It is not what I had hoped, but I think I will have to settle for a broader 15th-late 17th century sort of time frame. I have learned more than if I had not asked though, so I will count things as a win regardless.

[fernando]

Rather complex subject indeed, taking into account a vast range of considerations like time line between different nations being distinct, with some adopting certain types and others not, and each one in its own period. The universe of typologies is huge and so are the locking systems, handles and all that.
See how slim is a "Esmerilhão" of the beg. 167h century, exhibited in the armoury of the Ducal Palace of Vila Viçosa, with a 3 cms. caliber, total length 186 cms. with a breech of 44 cms.
Then we have two of the seven bombard chambers used in the siege of Baza by the Spanish Catholic Kings in 1489. These have a caliber of 20,5 cms and a length of 142 cms.
An at last we have a chamber from the end 14th - beg. 15th century, in exhibition in the Portuguese Navy Museum. With a weight of 1450 Kilos, a length of 1,5 mts. and an exterior diameter of 42 cms. (38 cms. at the muzzle), it would have served a gross bombard or "Trom" of some 4 to 5 mts. length and a muzzle diameter of circa 1,5 mts.

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