Opinions on "Kurdish-Armenian" Yatagans?

AvtoGaz · 29th October 2023, 02:31 AM

These rare weapons are often modified European blades with a yatagan hilt and persianesque decoration. I recently discovered a picture of one with a rather spectacular curve, complete with an unintelligible Armenian inscription.

I had previously assumed that these weapons were coming out of Armenian/Kurdish populated areas in Eastern Turkey, but given the fact that the inscription on that particular piece closely mirrors similar (equally unintelligible) inscriptions found on some Caucasian Kindjals, this makes me doubt my previous assumption.

Perhaps these weapons were coming out of somewhere in Southern Transcaucasia? Or maybe perhaps the kindjals with similar inscriptions were coming out of Eastern Turkey?

I would be interested if anyone has any insights or further information to share.

Below: A picture of this monstrosity and an Armenian-inscribed kindjal to compare its inscriptions to, as well some other specimens of these yatagans.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2023, 09:37 AM

These are indeed Transcaucasian weapons as far as I have known and distinctly associated with the 'Black Sea Yataghan' as per Jacobsen & Triikman (1941).
It seems these Danish authors used material from "A Magyar Faji Vandor" (J.Vichy, Budapest , 1897) in identifying these.

Attached
Plate from Vichy
From Wallis & Wallis sale 352 1989
My example with straight rather than recurved blade (there were numerous variations)
An interesting 'bronze age' sapara (Burton, 1884)
My example transcaucasian 'Black Sea' yataghan
From "Schwert Degen Sabel" Gerhard Seifert (1962) who informed me his identification was from Jacobsen

These weapons seem to have been known in the Caucusus, especially the 'Black Sea yataghan' (Laz bichagi') as many have been known with Georgian inscriptions.

kronckew · 29th October 2023, 11:23 AM

That drawing of a bronze one looks a lot like a kopesh...
Real kopesh found near Jerusalem at bottom

AvtoGaz · 29th October 2023, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These are indeed Transcaucasian weapons as far as I have known and distinctly associated with the 'Black Sea Yataghan' as per Jacobsen & Triikman (1941).
It seems these Danish authors used material from "A Magyar Faji Vandor" (J.Vichy, Budapest , 1897) in identifying these.

Attached
Plate from Vichy
From Wallis & Wallis sale 352 1989
My example with straight rather than recurved blade (there were numerous variations)
An interesting 'bronze age' sapara (Burton, 1884)
My example transcaucasian 'Black Sea' yataghan
From "Schwert Degen Sabel" Gerhard Seifert (1962) who informed me his identification was from Jacobsen

These weapons seem to have been known in the Caucusus, especially the 'Black Sea yataghan' (Laz bichagi') as many have been known with Georgian inscriptions.

I see a few issues with both the Transcaucasian and Anatolian classifications I have seen for this weapon.

Its hard to deny the obvious similarities and correlation these weapons share with the Laz Bichagi, yet we see some samples that are inscribed in Armenian. While there were ethnic Armenians known as the Hemshin living in the Lazistan region of Turkey, who were widely reported to have shared the same bandit and warlike propensities of the Laz, by the 19th century they were Muslim and completely ceased using the Armenian script. Thus, its not possible to attribute this weapon to them.

The other option would be that they are from the Erzurum region, a region right next to Lazistan that was inhabited in large numbers both by Armenians and Kurds. It would seem logical that such a weapon could have been made and used here, yet this would not explain the obvious Persian decorative influences on some of these, as well as the similarities of their inscriptions to those found on "Armenian style" Kindjals (some of which also have Persian inscriptions on them). It seems such influences could have been present if the weapon was coming out of Armenia proper, a region which was under Persian rule for many centuries.

Yet Armenia itself is very far away from the Pontic Region where this weapon's supposed cousin, the Laz Bichag, was used. Plus, there are no analogous weapons anywhere else in the Transcaucasus, even places that are much closer to the Pontic region. While some Laz Bichagi have Georgian inscriptions, I feel that these were doubtlessly wielded in Guria, a region of Georgia which was both nearby Lazistan and shared the same "Pontic Culture" of this region. Indeed, the first photo that comes up when you search "Gurian men" shows them wielding Laz Bichags. All of this can not be said for Armenia.

To add another layer to this story: Pictured below is a sword that was on auction a few years ago, clearly sharing the same blade decoration and scabbard fittings as those found on Kurdish-Armenian yatagans. Compare the fittings on this sword to those found on the example from Tirri's book.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2023, 07:03 PM

Well observed Avto Gaz, and well placed as you are clearly well versed in the ethnography and geography of these regions. I very much appreciate your detailed perspective and explanations as I consider my knowledge and understanding of these weapons very much a 'work in progress'. While I have actively studied these for many years, the resources needed are not always easy to find, nor obtained, and what I presented took many years to find.

I would note that in the references I have consulted, which includes correspondence with museums which were cited in Jacobsen & Triikman (1941) indeed confirming the items in their holdings, often noted collection of them in ERZERUM and TREBIZON. Here I would point out that the Kurdish and Armenian peoples have been widely diffused geographically throughout all these regions through diaspora over many years, and cannot be geographically defined, at least specifically.

As I have been told by respected scholars, 'ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries', which seems an obvious and well placed axiom.

I would note here that the Armenians are known as profoundly skilled craftsmen, and the producers of remarkable arms in Ottoman contexts, as well as throughout Transcaucasian and Anatolian regions, even into Europe (notably Lvov) and particularly present in Tiflis (Tblisi, Georgia).
I am certain they were active in many arms making centers in addition to these, which come to mind as prevalent.

This is accounts for an undeniable fact in adamant geographic classifications, that ethnic groups are not limited to specific regions, and proper description must go to the most predominant characteristics of the weapons. To class a weapon form as indiginous to a region it should have remarkable preponderance there as well as some chronological development with viable provenance.

I can recall, by analogy, the so called 'Zanzibar' sword (Demmin, 1877; Burton, 1884) which of course had been seen there, however later research revealed these were in fact the 's'boula' form from Moroccan regions which had migrated there through trans Saharan trade networks.
It was claimed these were Abyssinan because of several examples which turned up in some obscure references on Ethiopian weapons in which ge'ez script (Amharic) was present. Simply explained, these arrived there from the Moroccan regions via the same conduit.

By the same token, these Black Sea yataghans have also been mislabeled 'North African' by some writers due to inscriptions on the blades described as 'African' , and the presence of some from North African regions. This I attribute to the Ottoman presence there in the 19th c. and obviously the ethnic groups present in that context, including Armenians et al.
I recall Mr. Seifert himself when I asked about the example he pictured in his book (1962), he told me he had the Kurdish-Armenian classification from his colleague Mr. Jacobsen (1941) and that he was puzzled by the 'strange' inscriptions on the blade. As many years have passed, I can only speculate that these were perhaps Georgian ?as we know some examples of these have displayed. In conversations with a colleague in Tblisi, I was told that these indeed were somewhat known there as we discussed them. Again, the Armenian presence in Tblisi the obvious source.

AvtoGaz · 29th October 2023, 11:50 PM

Thank you Jim for your invaluable insights. If these weapons were indeed being collected in Erzurum, then their presence in the Transcaucasus and Tbilisi would make a lot of sense. As we know, a lot of the most famous ethnic Armenian masters of Caucasian Arms (example: Purunsuzov) originally hailed from Erzurum. There was a large migration of ethnic Armenians from Ezurum to the Russian empire (Most notably to Southern Georgia and the north Armenian region of Shirak) after the Russo-Turkish wars. I take it that perhaps they also brought this weapon with them, and some of the craftsmen that moved also applied their decorative style to Caucasian kindjals? Kindjals including the one I posted at the top of my post. Both the Yatagan and Kindjal at the top share their style of blade decoration and more importantly, style of inscription (which I, as a native Armenian speaker, can only describe as letter imitation. Some of the letters are real letters of the Armenian alphabet, others are not or were somehow misspelled. Not one inscription on either of them forms a coherent word. I take it either these were being produced by illiterate masters putting inscriptions on for simple decoration, or its some form of stylization that abbreviates words by omitting letters.) Given these similarities, I think these kindjals and the Kurdish-Armenian yatagans are invariably linked.

My 2 cents.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2023, 11:39 PM

Thank you as well, and again, I appreciate your explaining your position based on the inscribed decorative motif on these. I agree with what you suggest on them based on the fact that the letters do not form coherent words. As you note, there is the thought of non speakers of Armenian trying to imitate the language 'artistically' or less convincing, illiterate workers.

I think the notion of stylized lettering and placement of letters with omissions may be a plausible explanation, much as the use of acrostic letters found on many Italian blades, sometimes copied in that manner elsewhere. In times and regions where conflicts, strife and intrigues were at hand with ethnic, religious, political issues were constantly present, such methods seemed viable.

There are examples of such 'coded' acrostic 'messages' found on medieval swords that many have seen as 'jibberish' as no intelligible words are there.
In some cases, the use of numbers in the same manner form acrostics or acronyms using the alphabetical equivalent of the numbers.

It seems I have seen many examples of weapons with similar use of decoration, deeply punched markings on swords such as qama, which share similarities to kindjhals which are claimed to be from Azerbijian, many not what I would deem of 'quality'.

There certainly a lot of possibilities here, given the complex dynamics of these regions and the peoples involved, but the history here is fascinating.

29th October 2023, 02:31 AM	#1
AvtoGaz Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 33	Opinions on "Kurdish-Armenian" Yatagans? These rare weapons are often modified European blades with a yatagan hilt and persianesque decoration. I recently discovered a picture of one with a rather spectacular curve, complete with an unintelligible Armenian inscription. I had previously assumed that these weapons were coming out of Armenian/Kurdish populated areas in Eastern Turkey, but given the fact that the inscription on that particular piece closely mirrors similar (equally unintelligible) inscriptions found on some Caucasian Kindjals, this makes me doubt my previous assumption. Perhaps these weapons were coming out of somewhere in Southern Transcaucasia? Or maybe perhaps the kindjals with similar inscriptions were coming out of Eastern Turkey? I would be interested if anyone has any insights or further information to share. Below: A picture of this monstrosity and an Armenian-inscribed kindjal to compare its inscriptions to, as well some other specimens of these yatagans. Attached Images

29th October 2023, 09:37 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	These are indeed Transcaucasian weapons as far as I have known and distinctly associated with the 'Black Sea Yataghan' as per Jacobsen & Triikman (1941). It seems these Danish authors used material from "A Magyar Faji Vandor" (J.Vichy, Budapest , 1897) in identifying these. Attached Plate from Vichy From Wallis & Wallis sale 352 1989 My example with straight rather than recurved blade (there were numerous variations) An interesting 'bronze age' sapara (Burton, 1884) My example transcaucasian 'Black Sea' yataghan From "Schwert Degen Sabel" Gerhard Seifert (1962) who informed me his identification was from Jacobsen These weapons seem to have been known in the Caucusus, especially the 'Black Sea yataghan' (Laz bichagi') as many have been known with Georgian inscriptions. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th October 2023 at 09:55 AM.

29th October 2023, 11:23 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,187	That drawing of a bronze one looks a lot like a kopesh... Real kopesh found near Jerusalem at bottom Attached Images

29th October 2023, 11:50 PM	#6
AvtoGaz Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 33	Thank you Jim for your invaluable insights. If these weapons were indeed being collected in Erzurum, then their presence in the Transcaucasus and Tbilisi would make a lot of sense. As we know, a lot of the most famous ethnic Armenian masters of Caucasian Arms (example: Purunsuzov) originally hailed from Erzurum. There was a large migration of ethnic Armenians from Ezurum to the Russian empire (Most notably to Southern Georgia and the north Armenian region of Shirak) after the Russo-Turkish wars. I take it that perhaps they also brought this weapon with them, and some of the craftsmen that moved also applied their decorative style to Caucasian kindjals? Kindjals including the one I posted at the top of my post. Both the Yatagan and Kindjal at the top share their style of blade decoration and more importantly, style of inscription (which I, as a native Armenian speaker, can only describe as letter imitation. Some of the letters are real letters of the Armenian alphabet, others are not or were somehow misspelled. Not one inscription on either of them forms a coherent word. I take it either these were being produced by illiterate masters putting inscriptions on for simple decoration, or its some form of stylization that abbreviates words by omitting letters.) Given these similarities, I think these kindjals and the Kurdish-Armenian yatagans are invariably linked. My 2 cents. Last edited by Lee; 30th October 2023 at 01:53 AM. Reason: Please do not quote entire previous posts, just relevant small sections when necessary.

29th October 2023, 07:03 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Well observed Avto Gaz, and well placed as you are clearly well versed in the ethnography and geography of these regions. I very much appreciate your detailed perspective and explanations as I consider my knowledge and understanding of these weapons very much a 'work in progress'. While I have actively studied these for many years, the resources needed are not always easy to find, nor obtained, and what I presented took many years to find. I would note that in the references I have consulted, which includes correspondence with museums which were cited in Jacobsen & Triikman (1941) indeed confirming the items in their holdings, often noted collection of them in ERZERUM and TREBIZON. Here I would point out that the Kurdish and Armenian peoples have been widely diffused geographically throughout all these regions through diaspora over many years, and cannot be geographically defined, at least specifically. As I have been told by respected scholars, 'ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries', which seems an obvious and well placed axiom. I would note here that the Armenians are known as profoundly skilled craftsmen, and the producers of remarkable arms in Ottoman contexts, as well as throughout Transcaucasian and Anatolian regions, even into Europe (notably Lvov) and particularly present in Tiflis (Tblisi, Georgia). I am certain they were active in many arms making centers in addition to these, which come to mind as prevalent. This is accounts for an undeniable fact in adamant geographic classifications, that ethnic groups are not limited to specific regions, and proper description must go to the most predominant characteristics of the weapons. To class a weapon form as indiginous to a region it should have remarkable preponderance there as well as some chronological development with viable provenance. I can recall, by analogy, the so called 'Zanzibar' sword (Demmin, 1877; Burton, 1884) which of course had been seen there, however later research revealed these were in fact the 's'boula' form from Moroccan regions which had migrated there through trans Saharan trade networks. It was claimed these were Abyssinan because of several examples which turned up in some obscure references on Ethiopian weapons in which ge'ez script (Amharic) was present. Simply explained, these arrived there from the Moroccan regions via the same conduit. By the same token, these Black Sea yataghans have also been mislabeled 'North African' by some writers due to inscriptions on the blades described as 'African' , and the presence of some from North African regions. This I attribute to the Ottoman presence there in the 19th c. and obviously the ethnic groups present in that context, including Armenians et al. I recall Mr. Seifert himself when I asked about the example he pictured in his book (1962), he told me he had the Kurdish-Armenian classification from his colleague Mr. Jacobsen (1941) and that he was puzzled by the 'strange' inscriptions on the blade. As many years have passed, I can only speculate that these were perhaps Georgian ?as we know some examples of these have displayed. In conversations with a colleague in Tblisi, I was told that these indeed were somewhat known there as we discussed them. Again, the Armenian presence in Tblisi the obvious source.

30th October 2023, 11:39 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Thank you as well, and again, I appreciate your explaining your position based on the inscribed decorative motif on these. I agree with what you suggest on them based on the fact that the letters do not form coherent words. As you note, there is the thought of non speakers of Armenian trying to imitate the language 'artistically' or less convincing, illiterate workers. I think the notion of stylized lettering and placement of letters with omissions may be a plausible explanation, much as the use of acrostic letters found on many Italian blades, sometimes copied in that manner elsewhere. In times and regions where conflicts, strife and intrigues were at hand with ethnic, religious, political issues were constantly present, such methods seemed viable. There are examples of such 'coded' acrostic 'messages' found on medieval swords that many have seen as 'jibberish' as no intelligible words are there. In some cases, the use of numbers in the same manner form acrostics or acronyms using the alphabetical equivalent of the numbers. It seems I have seen many examples of weapons with similar use of decoration, deeply punched markings on swords such as qama, which share similarities to kindjhals which are claimed to be from Azerbijian, many not what I would deem of 'quality'. There certainly a lot of possibilities here, given the complex dynamics of these regions and the peoples involved, but the history here is fascinating.