Need your help on ID of this chainmail hauberk.

Dmitry · 27th July 2009, 03:34 AM

If I didn't know any better, I'd think this came from an S&M club.
Size is roughly 100 cm wide x 50 cm long, more a t-shirt, than a shirt proper; rather heavy at about 7 lbs.
Rings are about 6 mm in outer diameter, and are not riveted, which perhaps indicates that this piece being indo-persian, but I am not sure..
Thanks in advance.

Dmitry · 27th July 2009, 03:42 AM

BTW, my intention is to sell this piece, which obviously doesn't indicate that this is an advertisement of an item for sale. I just want to know the origin of it, and the books I have are not of much help in this instance. If this doesn't sit well with someone here [i.e. 'why should I bother helping someone who's going to profit', etc. etc], then you might want to abstain.

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

BTW, my intention is to sell this piece, which obviously doesn't indicate that this is an advertisement of an item for sale. I just want to know the origin of it, and the books I have are not of much help in this instance. If this doesn't sit well with someone here [i.e. 'why should I bother helping someone who's going to profit', etc. etc], then you might want to abstain.

Thanks very much Dmitry for being straightforward about that, and we have had some recent discussions onthis very subject. As long as you're not advertising here and we are not discussing values or price, simply identification, I'm just getting my note pad ready

I dont know much on this topic and I'm always up for learning.
Since this is a topic that pertains to possible sale of an item, it is good to note, as I'm sure you already have, that the information shared by members in the discussion is referred to in the rules posted.

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 28th July 2009, 09:02 PM

Hi Dmitry

When looking at mail I always look at a few things.
Firstly initial 'look'. Which in the case of yours makes me wonder why there is no corrosion at all.
So, the weight means it must be steel, so is it galvanised/zinc coated? If not then why doesn't it have some rusty patches?

Second the construction. Its simple butted links. Have a close look, are they all round and the same size, are they all closed perfectly?

Thirdly, try bending one near the edge of the shirt and see if it resists being opened like its heat treated/tempered in some way or just bends.

I wouldn't want to make a guess until I know these things. In any event a good looking shirt!

Regards
Gene

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2009, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Dmitry

When looking at mail I always look at a few things.
Firstly initial 'look'. Which in the case of yours makes me wonder why there is no corrosion at all.
So, the weight means it must be steel, so is it galvanised/zinc coated? If not then why doesn't it have some rusty patches?

Second the construction. Its simple butted links. Have a close look, are they all round and the same size, are they all closed perfectly?

Thirdly, try bending one near the edge of the shirt and see if it resists being opened like its heat treated/tempered in some way or just bends.

I wouldn't want to make a guess until I know these things. In any event a good looking shirt!

Regards
Gene

Well observed and very nicely put Gene!!

fernando · 29th July 2009, 04:34 PM

Hi Jim,
Out in the prarie?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well observed and very nicely put Gene!!

Also agreed.
To be or not to be ... genuinely aged; that's the question.
Fernando

celtan · 29th July 2009, 03:45 PM

Hi Guys,

Once again, I have absolutely no problem if any info that I may provide is used by a forum member to help sell his article.

OTOH, I want to be very clear that my collection is in a continuous state of flux, and that any of the items I discuss here may be sold/exchanged at any moment, although they are not for sale at the time of the discussion.

Sometimes, after I find out the provenance of an item, the fun is simply over.

Gene, is good to see we have members knowledgeable in so many fields. Good observations! We live to learn.

Dmitri, I posted a russian sword for you some weeks ago, did you get to see it..?

Guys, regarding my collection, I'm not a "dealer", but to be utterly frank, with very few exceptions, if I'm offered oodles of moollah for something it _will_ be sold! (Then I'll use that the money buy other toys..: ) Isn't that the name of the game?

BTW: Anyone care to buy a mother-in-law..?

Best

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much Dmitry for being straightforward about that, and we have had some recent discussions onthis very subject. As long as you're not advertising here and we are not discussing values or price, simply identification, I'm just getting my note pad ready

I dont know much on this topic and I'm always up for learning.
Since this is a topic that pertains to possible sale of an item, it is good to note, as I'm sure you already have, that the information shared by members in the discussion is referred to in the rules posted.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 29th July 2009, 04:27 PM

Hola Manolete

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

A) I have absolutely no problem if any info that I may provide is used by a forum member to help sell his article ...
B) my collection is in a continuous state of flux, and that any of the items I discuss here may be sold/exchanged at any moment, although they are not for sale at the time of the discussion ...
C) Sometimes, after I find out the provenance of an item, the fun is simply over ...
D) I'm not a "dealer", but to be utterly frank, with very few exceptions, if I'm offered oodles of moollah for something it _will_ be sold! (Then I'll use that the money buy other toys..: ) Isn't that the name of the game? ...
E) Anyone care to buy a mother-in-law? ...

That's what i call a 'crescendo' of statements; in which, each of them does not diminish the value of the previous one

.

Saludos
Nando

Atlantia · 29th July 2009, 05:07 PM

Jim,
You are as always very kind. Thank you buddy.

Manolo,

Thanks

A tiny amount of knowledge on a wide range of subjects often gets me into trouble

I have very similar thoughts about my collection. It's quite small and ecclectic by the standards of many here, and whilst I have many pieces that I would wish to keep permenantly, I'm a man of modest means with diverse taste who cant resist a bargain!
This often means I buy items, clean them up, identify them (sometimes by asking here), sometimes I need to rebuild and restore them, then I enjoy them for a while, but if I wish to be able to acquire more, I need to sell or swap them to make room/fund others.
Its how I learn, how I get to keep some of my favourite things, and how I aspire to own others.

As to Dmitry's Chainmail, if there is any ambiguity with chainmail I always think about the materials technique and construction. Dmitry's items are the classic simple form of linking, medium sized butted links etc. I would be thinking about where the links came from, were they produced as links or made from steel wire. From his picture I cant see any flattenning or 'shaping' of the links.
I'm sure we all already have opinions on this set, hopefully Dmitry will rejoin the discussion and we can solve the question completely.

Regards
Gene

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2009, 06:08 PM

Interesting comments overall, and Nando, you are truly an 'artiste' with words...crescendo, very well put!
I think with collectors, most collections are in varying degree 'in flux', and often pieces have to be 'let go' either to upgrade or as interests digress into other fields. Most individuals must make these choices as typically, most of us do not have the means to acquire items as comprehensively as we would like to. Many become dealers in degree as well, in order to subsidize thier collecting.

With this understanding I think we all agree that buying and selling items is most often a necessary element of collecting.Personally I admire sellers who responsibly try to learn all they can about an item before placing it for sale, and present the description as accurately and detailed as possible.

Returning to the subject at hand, the identification of this chainmail, I will say again that the comments thus far seem to well address the condition of the mail, and I look forward to hearing more on the construction, as Gene has well noted.
It seems I have studied arms and armour most of my life, and the more I think I know, the more I realize how much I dont know

I love to learn and being here in these discussions is by far the greatest joy ever, where the learning never stops.

Perhaps some close up shots will give better look at the construction Dmitry.

Nando, you got it, on the prairie as always it seems, headed west toward El Paso, on the 'low road' (US 10) long drive to Tuscon, then in for 'wagon repairs' then northern Arizona near Flagstaff. The 'Boss' says I gotta thin out the library some here in the bookmobile or we're gonna need new shocks

All the best,
Jim

27th July 2009, 03:34 AM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Need your help on ID of this chainmail hauberk. If I didn't know any better, I'd think this came from an S&M club. Size is roughly 100 cm wide x 50 cm long, more a t-shirt, than a shirt proper; rather heavy at about 7 lbs. Rings are about 6 mm in outer diameter, and are not riveted, which perhaps indicates that this piece being indo-persian, but I am not sure.. Thanks in advance.

27th July 2009, 03:42 AM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	BTW, my intention is to sell this piece, which obviously doesn't indicate that this is an advertisement of an item for sale. I just want to know the origin of it, and the books I have are not of much help in this instance. If this doesn't sit well with someone here [i.e. 'why should I bother helping someone who's going to profit', etc. etc], then you might want to abstain.

28th July 2009, 09:02 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Dmitry When looking at mail I always look at a few things. Firstly initial 'look'. Which in the case of yours makes me wonder why there is no corrosion at all. So, the weight means it must be steel, so is it galvanised/zinc coated? If not then why doesn't it have some rusty patches? Second the construction. Its simple butted links. Have a close look, are they all round and the same size, are they all closed perfectly? Thirdly, try bending one near the edge of the shirt and see if it resists being opened like its heat treated/tempered in some way or just bends. I wouldn't want to make a guess until I know these things. In any event a good looking shirt! Regards Gene

29th July 2009, 05:07 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Jim, You are as always very kind. Thank you buddy. Manolo, Thanks A tiny amount of knowledge on a wide range of subjects often gets me into trouble I have very similar thoughts about my collection. It's quite small and ecclectic by the standards of many here, and whilst I have many pieces that I would wish to keep permenantly, I'm a man of modest means with diverse taste who cant resist a bargain! This often means I buy items, clean them up, identify them (sometimes by asking here), sometimes I need to rebuild and restore them, then I enjoy them for a while, but if I wish to be able to acquire more, I need to sell or swap them to make room/fund others. Its how I learn, how I get to keep some of my favourite things, and how I aspire to own others. As to Dmitry's Chainmail, if there is any ambiguity with chainmail I always think about the materials technique and construction. Dmitry's items are the classic simple form of linking, medium sized butted links etc. I would be thinking about where the links came from, were they produced as links or made from steel wire. From his picture I cant see any flattenning or 'shaping' of the links. I'm sure we all already have opinions on this set, hopefully Dmitry will rejoin the discussion and we can solve the question completely. Regards Gene

29th July 2009, 06:08 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Interesting comments overall, and Nando, you are truly an 'artiste' with words...crescendo, very well put! I think with collectors, most collections are in varying degree 'in flux', and often pieces have to be 'let go' either to upgrade or as interests digress into other fields. Most individuals must make these choices as typically, most of us do not have the means to acquire items as comprehensively as we would like to. Many become dealers in degree as well, in order to subsidize thier collecting. With this understanding I think we all agree that buying and selling items is most often a necessary element of collecting.Personally I admire sellers who responsibly try to learn all they can about an item before placing it for sale, and present the description as accurately and detailed as possible. Returning to the subject at hand, the identification of this chainmail, I will say again that the comments thus far seem to well address the condition of the mail, and I look forward to hearing more on the construction, as Gene has well noted. It seems I have studied arms and armour most of my life, and the more I think I know, the more I realize how much I dont know I love to learn and being here in these discussions is by far the greatest joy ever, where the learning never stops. Perhaps some close up shots will give better look at the construction Dmitry. Nando, you got it, on the prairie as always it seems, headed west toward El Paso, on the 'low road' (US 10) long drive to Tuscon, then in for 'wagon repairs' then northern Arizona near Flagstaff. The 'Boss' says I gotta thin out the library some here in the bookmobile or we're gonna need new shocks All the best, Jim