Pappenheimer - identifying maker

Triarii · 7th November 2021, 03:18 PM

Me again.
I've just given this Pappenheimer a clean up - removed the active rust and the layer of crud inside the pierced baskets. Wooden grip is a bit worn inside so the blade moves relative to the guard.
I'm trying to identify the maker here. I think the words are IOHANNI Z, but that may be my brain inserting letters that aren't there. The only candidate I can identify so far is Johanni Zucini, but this may be too late for him.

There are also anchor type marks at the end of the fullers and armourers marks on the ricasso which I cant find in Gyngall & Hawtrey. Can anyone help? Thanks.

Triarii · 23rd November 2021, 08:45 PM

Digging about I'm pretty sure the mark is a Toledo one - matches very well the form of those on page 34 of Hawtrey, some of which also have single letters, and it appears to be a curvy E (a soak in WD40 and poking with a cotton bud showed more).

IOANNI could also be Latin for Juane.

mariusgmioc · 24th November 2021, 11:58 AM

To me it seems it is not Ioannis but IOHANNIS or even JOHANNIS.

May it be it refers to refer to Johannis Brach?!

There might be other candidates as well, like Johannis Hoppe, Johannes Mumm, Johannes Wundes and maybe others I do not know. The punch mark should give more information.

The "anchor" mark is most likely a talismanic symbol found on many swords, and I do not think it can be useful for identifying the maker.

Anyhow, magnificent rapier!

Triarii · 24th November 2021, 05:28 PM

You're right, it is IOHANNIS, my typo.

I've had a Google and a search on here (find a 2016 discussion on Solingen makers going to Spain and the Fox / Wolf conundrum) but cannot find any more on Johannis Brach. Can you help in any way?

fernando · 24th November 2021, 07:36 PM

If the punch mark pictures were in the inverted position, some Toledo marks would (sort of) match that one. But the name on the blade being JOHANNIS, i don't think Toledo is a possibility.
Beautiful sword, by the way.

.

mariusgmioc · 24th November 2021, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

If the punch mark pictures were in the inverted position, some Toledo marks would (sort of) match that one. But the name on the blade being JOHANNIS, i don't think Toledo is a possibility.
Beautiful sword, by the way.

.

Didn't Johannis Brach work for a while in Toledo too?

I seem to remember there are a couple of swords made by him in Toledo, that were in the imperial Russian collection?!

7th November 2021, 03:18 PM	#1
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 113	Pappenheimer - identifying maker Me again. I've just given this Pappenheimer a clean up - removed the active rust and the layer of crud inside the pierced baskets. Wooden grip is a bit worn inside so the blade moves relative to the guard. I'm trying to identify the maker here. I think the words are IOHANNI Z, but that may be my brain inserting letters that aren't there. The only candidate I can identify so far is Johanni Zucini, but this may be too late for him. There are also anchor type marks at the end of the fullers and armourers marks on the ricasso which I cant find in Gyngall & Hawtrey. Can anyone help? Thanks. Attached Images

24th November 2021, 07:36 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	If the punch mark pictures were in the inverted position, some Toledo marks would (sort of) match that one. But the name on the blade being JOHANNIS, i don't think Toledo is a possibility. Beautiful sword, by the way. . Attached Images

23rd November 2021, 08:45 PM	#2
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 113	Digging about I'm pretty sure the mark is a Toledo one - matches very well the form of those on page 34 of Hawtrey, some of which also have single letters, and it appears to be a curvy E (a soak in WD40 and poking with a cotton bud showed more). IOANNI could also be Latin for Juane.

24th November 2021, 11:58 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	To me it seems it is not Ioannis but IOHANNIS or even JOHANNIS. May it be it refers to refer to Johannis Brach?! There might be other candidates as well, like Johannis Hoppe, Johannes Mumm, Johannes Wundes and maybe others I do not know. The punch mark should give more information. The "anchor" mark is most likely a talismanic symbol found on many swords, and I do not think it can be useful for identifying the maker. Anyhow, magnificent rapier!

24th November 2021, 05:28 PM	#4
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 113	You're right, it is IOHANNIS, my typo. I've had a Google and a search on here (find a 2016 discussion on Solingen makers going to Spain and the Fox / Wolf conundrum) but cannot find any more on Johannis Brach. Can you help in any way?