African (?) knife

Yvain · 10th January 2022, 03:40 PM

Hi everyone !

I recently bought an interesting knife, with a nice handle, but I'm having trouble determining what it is exactly.

I've seen somewhat similar daggers described as "moorish daggers" with no further information (http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?m...m-mali-39-2-cm). It also has some similarities with some faca de ponta, but the sheath looks rather african in my eyes. Someone in a group suggested that it was a Yoruba knife, but I haven't been able to find something similar.

The handle is heavy and made out of bronze with a hard wood (ebony ?) insert. The sheath is made out of leather with some textile covering, maybe red velvet originally.

I've started cleaning the blade that was deeply pitted and rusted, it has a "wavy" engraved design near the spine on both sides. The whole knife is 36.4cm long.

Thanks in advance for your help and let me know if you need any more pictures or information !

Sajen · 10th January 2022, 10:20 PM

An South American dagger, I guess Brazilian, I have seen 19th century Faca de Pontas like this, Mineira knife could be an other possibility.
See this threads: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...azilian+dagger
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...azilian+dagger
The handle construction and the bolster are give aways for me.
Very nice knife.
Attached some 19th century Faca de Pontas from my collection.

From up to down: 32,4 cm, 39 cm, 32,5 cm, 18 cm

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 10th January 2022, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvain

I've seen somewhat similar daggers described as "moorish daggers" with no further information (http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?m...m-mali-39-2-cm).

Wolf-Dieter is wrong in this case, the shown dagger is clearly a Faca de Ponta. The scabbard is also very typical for a FdP.

Sajen · 10th January 2022, 10:40 PM

Can you show a picture from the bolster like this?

Ian · 11th January 2022, 08:25 AM

I agree with Sajen. Very much a Spanish-style knife with a South American hilt. Most likely from Brazil. The blade profile is a little different from the common 20th C versions of the faca da ponta, but it may be an older historical form. Trade between Spanish colonies was common, and of course such trade was the norm between Spain and its colonies. That such knives ended up in northern and western Africa is quite understandable.

Yvain · 11th January 2022, 09:11 AM

Thanks! 🙂

So most likely a South American knife with a West African sheath? That's quite a travel for a knife!

Here is a picture of the bolster :

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2022, 09:21 AM

A Spanish knife from the Spanish Sahara. 1880 something to mid 20th century.

Sajen · 11th January 2022, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvain

Here is a picture of the bolster :

Yes, very similar. It's somewhat typical.

ariel · 27th July 2022, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I agree with Sajen. Very much a Spanish-style knife with a South American hilt. Most likely from Brazil. The blade profile is a little different from the common 20th C versions of the faca da ponta, but it may be an older historical form. Trade between Spanish colonies was common, and of course such trade was the norm between Spain and its colonies. That such knives ended up in northern and western Africa is quite understandable.

I think Ian’s explanation might be the most “Occam-ish”. Spanish cutlers made S. American style knives and exported them to Brazil. Having found a degree of demand in NW Africa, they expanded their export to an easily reachable nearby market.
That would also explain African scabbards with African suspension cords : scabbards are perishable components and can easily be made locally.

Instead of postulating chancy occurence of parallel development or something similar we can explain the appearance of same or very similar features of “Brazilian” and “NW African” knives by business decisions of the manufacturers. Similarly, some minor differences in the construction might be easily compatible with different manufacturers having preferred export targets.

Globalization did not start yesterday.

RobT · 28th July 2022, 01:42 AM

ariel,

I certainly believe that Ian's proposal is plausible but I ask you to consider these two arguments.
One, there is not one shred of concrete evidence to prove conclusively that the three blades in African sheaths are of Spanish origin. There are no blade stamps. All we do have is a suite of characteristics that are shared by North African and Spanish knives alike.
Two, the most visible elements on knives and swords are the sheath and the hilt. As such, the styling of these elements invariably reflects the culture of the wearer. For example, many koummya blades were made in Europe but the hilts and the sheaths were made in Africa. Takouba and Tulwar are just two more in a large array of examples of sometimes European blades with always native hilts and sheaths.
With argument two in mind, I find it strange that North Africans would accept a hilt not precisely of their culture. I also find it strange that any European cutlers would bother to supply hilts or sheaths when they could just export the blades alone (a la koummya, etc). This is especially true when one considers that non-culturally correct hilts and sheaths might be a negative selling point.

Sincerely,
RobT

10th January 2022, 03:40 PM	#1
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 178	African (?) knife Hi everyone ! I recently bought an interesting knife, with a nice handle, but I'm having trouble determining what it is exactly. I've seen somewhat similar daggers described as "moorish daggers" with no further information (http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?m...m-mali-39-2-cm). It also has some similarities with some faca de ponta, but the sheath looks rather african in my eyes. Someone in a group suggested that it was a Yoruba knife, but I haven't been able to find something similar. The handle is heavy and made out of bronze with a hard wood (ebony ?) insert. The sheath is made out of leather with some textile covering, maybe red velvet originally. I've started cleaning the blade that was deeply pitted and rusted, it has a "wavy" engraved design near the spine on both sides. The whole knife is 36.4cm long. Thanks in advance for your help and let me know if you need any more pictures or information ! Attached Images

10th January 2022, 10:20 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	An South American dagger, I guess Brazilian, I have seen 19th century Faca de Pontas like this, Mineira knife could be an other possibility. See this threads: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...azilian+dagger http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...azilian+dagger The handle construction and the bolster are give aways for me. Very nice knife. Attached some 19th century Faca de Pontas from my collection. From up to down: 32,4 cm, 39 cm, 32,5 cm, 18 cm Regards, Detlef Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 10th January 2022 at 10:47 PM.

10th January 2022, 10:40 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Can you show a picture from the bolster like this? Attached Images

11th January 2022, 09:11 AM	#6
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 178	Thanks! 🙂 So most likely a South American knife with a West African sheath? That's quite a travel for a knife! Here is a picture of the bolster : Attached Images

28th July 2022, 01:42 AM	#10
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 489	Not the Only Possible Conclusion ariel, I certainly believe that Ian's proposal is plausible but I ask you to consider these two arguments. One, there is not one shred of concrete evidence to prove conclusively that the three blades in African sheaths are of Spanish origin. There are no blade stamps. All we do have is a suite of characteristics that are shared by North African and Spanish knives alike. Two, the most visible elements on knives and swords are the sheath and the hilt. As such, the styling of these elements invariably reflects the culture of the wearer. For example, many koummya blades were made in Europe but the hilts and the sheaths were made in Africa. Takouba and Tulwar are just two more in a large array of examples of sometimes European blades with always native hilts and sheaths. With argument two in mind, I find it strange that North Africans would accept a hilt not precisely of their culture. I also find it strange that any European cutlers would bother to supply hilts or sheaths when they could just export the blades alone (a la koummya, etc). This is especially true when one considers that non-culturally correct hilts and sheaths might be a negative selling point. Sincerely, RobT

11th January 2022, 08:25 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	I agree with Sajen. Very much a Spanish-style knife with a South American hilt. Most likely from Brazil. The blade profile is a little different from the common 20th C versions of the faca da ponta, but it may be an older historical form. Trade between Spanish colonies was common, and of course such trade was the norm between Spain and its colonies. That such knives ended up in northern and western Africa is quite understandable.

11th January 2022, 09:21 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A Spanish knife from the Spanish Sahara. 1880 something to mid 20th century.