Karabela for comment

TVV · 11th December 2007, 09:02 PM

Here is another nice sword that belongs to a friend in Bulgaria. To me it looks like a Polish karabela, but I might be wrong, as it could be Turkish or Arab. I am curious to see where you guys place is in terms of origin and age. Also, is someone familiar with the little x-shaped marks in the fullers and their significance? Finally, according to my friend the hilt is dark wood (ebony?) and not buffalo horn - is that unusual?

Thank you,

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2007, 02:09 AM

Teodor, this is an interesting cavalry sabre that is probably quite early, probably 18th century and most likely Eastern European, whether Polish or Hungarian always hard to say. It does carry the karabela style hilt and the guard corresponds to those seen on earlier Polish examples, really difficult to say without better references at hand.

The markings are of course most interesting, and exactly the kind of thing we are discussing on the early makers marks thread, where it seems the 'X' marks appear in a number of variations, typically enclosing a name, phrase or inscription. It does seem sometimes they occur in some sort of systemic representation of a numeric, which is the theme of the topic, trying to determine the symbolism behind these mysterious marks. Perhaps you might visit the thread?

All best regards,
Jim

TVV · 12th December 2007, 07:05 AM

Thanks Jim, I will be sure to check the "Early Makers' Marks" thread.

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2007, 07:28 AM

Thank you Teodor, the reason I brought that up is that this is exactly the sort of questions on markings on blades that prompted starting the thread. While this is of course most likely a European sabre, blades of this type occur often in various ethnographic swords, and this is a great example.

All best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 13th December 2007, 01:32 AM

Great piece! I think this is most likely Arabian in origin. The Karabella hilts like this were well used. I will post one from Pg10 Of Elgood's The Arms and Armour of Arabia described as a Arabian nimsha with wooden hilt. The nail head decoration is well documented on Arabian swords and daggers. Is there any way to get a better picture of the guard? The blade most likely is as Jim describes, and European. I will see if I can find any reference to the marks.

Again a great piece (I want it

)!
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2007, 02:06 AM

Hi Jeff,
You're right, the pommel on this is very un-karabela like and in rethinking it seems like the characteristic Ottoman hilt with a peak. The karabela hilt is multilobed and of course is a highly stylized zoomorphic that seems to be a bird head of some sort. I think of those silver hilt pallasches that Elgood also shows in that book, which are noted as 18th century and probably from Hadramaut . Many Arabian regions were under Ottoman suzerainty, so the presence of Ottoman forms seems well placed.

Thanks for coming in on this Jeff! I think those are the usual X markings that show up with ANDREA FERARA etc. at either end, but again think of those numeric sequences.

All the best,
Jim

TVV · 13th December 2007, 02:15 AM

Jeff,

Thanks for your comments - if it was not for you and Jim, what would we do? I will try to get a better picture of the guard. I have Elgood's book and if I recall correctly he stated that nimsha literally means "half" and therefore is best applied to naval cutlasses. This one seems to be a bit too long for this, but I compeletely agree that the hilt shape resembles the hilt pictured in Elgood's book, and your point about the nail decoration is very convincing as well.

Regards,

Teodor

11th December 2007, 09:02 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	Karabela for comment Here is another nice sword that belongs to a friend in Bulgaria. To me it looks like a Polish karabela, but I might be wrong, as it could be Turkish or Arab. I am curious to see where you guys place is in terms of origin and age. Also, is someone familiar with the little x-shaped marks in the fullers and their significance? Finally, according to my friend the hilt is dark wood (ebony?) and not buffalo horn - is that unusual? Thank you, Teodor Attached Images

13th December 2007, 01:32 AM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Great piece! I think this is most likely Arabian in origin. The Karabella hilts like this were well used. I will post one from Pg10 Of Elgood's The Arms and Armour of Arabia described as a Arabian nimsha with wooden hilt. The nail head decoration is well documented on Arabian swords and daggers. Is there any way to get a better picture of the guard? The blade most likely is as Jim describes, and European. I will see if I can find any reference to the marks. Again a great piece (I want it )! Jeff Attached Images

12th December 2007, 02:09 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Teodor, this is an interesting cavalry sabre that is probably quite early, probably 18th century and most likely Eastern European, whether Polish or Hungarian always hard to say. It does carry the karabela style hilt and the guard corresponds to those seen on earlier Polish examples, really difficult to say without better references at hand. The markings are of course most interesting, and exactly the kind of thing we are discussing on the early makers marks thread, where it seems the 'X' marks appear in a number of variations, typically enclosing a name, phrase or inscription. It does seem sometimes they occur in some sort of systemic representation of a numeric, which is the theme of the topic, trying to determine the symbolism behind these mysterious marks. Perhaps you might visit the thread? All best regards, Jim

12th December 2007, 07:05 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	Thanks Jim, I will be sure to check the "Early Makers' Marks" thread.

12th December 2007, 07:28 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you Teodor, the reason I brought that up is that this is exactly the sort of questions on markings on blades that prompted starting the thread. While this is of course most likely a European sabre, blades of this type occur often in various ethnographic swords, and this is a great example. All best regards, Jim

13th December 2007, 02:06 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Jeff, You're right, the pommel on this is very un-karabela like and in rethinking it seems like the characteristic Ottoman hilt with a peak. The karabela hilt is multilobed and of course is a highly stylized zoomorphic that seems to be a bird head of some sort. I think of those silver hilt pallasches that Elgood also shows in that book, which are noted as 18th century and probably from Hadramaut . Many Arabian regions were under Ottoman suzerainty, so the presence of Ottoman forms seems well placed. Thanks for coming in on this Jeff! I think those are the usual X markings that show up with ANDREA FERARA etc. at either end, but again think of those numeric sequences. All the best, Jim

13th December 2007, 02:15 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	Jeff, Thanks for your comments - if it was not for you and Jim, what would we do? I will try to get a better picture of the guard. I have Elgood's book and if I recall correctly he stated that nimsha literally means "half" and therefore is best applied to naval cutlasses. This one seems to be a bit too long for this, but I compeletely agree that the hilt shape resembles the hilt pictured in Elgood's book, and your point about the nail decoration is very convincing as well. Regards, Teodor