Pamor thread?

[Richard Furrer]

Hello All,
Would it be possible to have a thread with pamor photos?
I know this has been done with particular Keris which folk have gotten and others post similar or related pieces, but could a gallery of sorts be made where such images can be posted? Or maybe a sticky thread?

Some of you have posted images of Pamor I had never seen...really top shelf stuff.

Just a completely selfish cry from the snow covered shop of a blacksmith.
I am about to reconstruct some of these patterns and the larger sample body I have the better it is for me.

Ric

[sirek]

the idea was already suggested, but it did not come further than an idea

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12521

[Richard Furrer]

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

[Bjorn]

It would certainly be a feast for the eyes, and a nice way to look up pamor patterns one is unfamiliar with. It might be a bit difficult to set it up in a forum environment though, owing to the huge number of patterns in existence.

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard there are a lot of variations to pamor patterns, but there is a quite limited number of basic patterns, possibly only about 5 or so.

There are a lot of clear pictures of pamor patterns in Haryoguritno, but you will find that just about everything that we can see in pamor patterns is reflected in damascus patterns, and when you compare the two you'll probably find that you've already seen the pattern, or at least a pattern that has been produced in a similar way, in either Figiel or Sasche.

What we sometimes think of as a variation is in fact failure to achieve a desired effect.

[Richard Furrer]

Alan,
I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

You may indeed be correct, but in searching just this list I have discovered much. Makes me wonder what I am missing.

Perhaps if I post images of my reconstructions it would spur some interest.

Ric

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

Interesting. Try this

[GIO]

Far from being exaustive, I took the enclosed designs of various pamors from the "Ensiklopedi". My intention was to make a sort of handbook to identify pamor designs. The list is incomplete and is missing important pamors (mainly the newest ones). Moreover some designs are very badly reproduced in the book itself.
A great work would be to prepare a file for each pamor as simplified in the drawings and join the largest possible number of photo of real kerises with the same pamor.
My work is included.

[milandro]

thanks, Grazie, my mother tongue is Italian (I am naturalized Dutch) so that is an extra bonus

[A. G. Maisey]

Nice job GIO

[A. G. Maisey]

Bob, let's look at a couple of words, and what those words mean.

The word "garap" is Javanese and it means "the way of making/the process of production", this is the understanding that we must use when the context of usage is Javanese.

However, the word has come into Bahasa Indonesia, and in BI it is a root word, so strictly speaking it cannot be used as a stand-alone word, but only with prefixes and suffixes. But in colloquial usage, a native speaker of Javanese, when speaking in Bahasa Indonesia, will use the word "garap" to refer to "workmanship" or "craftsmanship", rather than the correct BI word "pembuatan"(workmanship) or "ketrampilan/keahlian" (craftsmanship).

So when we use the word "garap" to refer to the craftsmanship of the maker we are in fact using a word that in the Javanese mind refers to the way in which the object --- keris or otherwise --- was made, and again, in the Javanese mind, that "way of making" includes the physical & mental skill of the maker.

This whole idea of using foreign words interpolated into a different language means that to understand what is really meant we need to understand the meanings in the foreign language. In the case of the word "garap" we --- as English speakers --- tend to gloss that word as "craftsmanship" but in its original language it is understood to encompass much more than the English word "craftsmanship" conveys to a native speaker of English.

When the word "garap" is included into the parameters used for appraisal those parameters move away from the hardcore, original parameters that were used by the people from whom I learnt and become parameters that are more suited to the market place than to the world of Javanese traditional values.

When the older system of appraisal is used:-
sepuh - wutuh - tangguh = age, condition, style/features

sepuh = old, wutuh = whole, unbroken, tangguh = characteristics (in this context)

the garap, that is, the "way in which the keris was produced" does not get a mention, because it automatically becomes a part of the appraisal system used to gauge the core parameters.

However, in the "market-place" parameters of appraisal "garap" does get a separate mention, so obviously, where the passing of time has corrupted the original characteristics of the keris, it becomes impossible to appraise the "garap" because it no longer provides evidence sufficient for appraisal.

In practice, Javanese ahli keris and dealers do not use pencil & paper to come to a determination of value, it is all a mental process, but if we were to use a pencil & paper it would work by starting with, say, ten value points for each element of appraisal , as each element was appraised, the value of ten would be decreased by the number of points by which the appraised keris did not meet perfection, so instead of a maximum point total of 30 (for the three element system) we might finish up with only 15 points, that 15 points would reduce the known or estimated value of a perfect example to 50% of the value.

Of course, all this is pretty rubbery, and subject to opinion, as we know, all opinions are not equal, and this is why Javanese keris appraisers get paid for their opinions. Exactly the same as appraisers of any items of value are paid, be it real property, livestock, jewellery or whatever.

When it comes right down to it, appraisal is about setting a value.

I understand that you were not looking for this sort of answer, you were just curious as to how craftsmanship --- our interpretation of the Javanese word "garap" --- can be appraised if the original form & evidence of execution has been altered by the passing of time.

The short answer to this is that it must be based upon the remaining evidence, if that evidence is insufficient to produce an informed opinion, then it cannot be appraised. In essence, no different to the way a western world appraiser of any art work would form an opinion.

[milandro]

for those who read Dutch (or can use Google translate)

this page shows a compendium , of course some would agree and some would agree to disagree

https://aberkel13.wixsite.com/keris/pamor