Looking for information on Andres Martinez of Toledo

10thRoyal · 23rd March 2023, 03:21 PM

Good afternoon all, I am looking for information on a Spanish sword smith that signed "Andres Martinez". Does anyone know of other examples of his work, any details about his career, or what years he was active? I was able to match the name and marking on a particular sword of interest to one of the Toledo armory catalogues (Andres Martinez) but have not been able to find much additional information besides the fact he is the "son of Zabala (de Garata)" which is not super helpful as there seems to be a younger and an elder by the Zabala name. Would love to hear any thoughts y'all might have.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 23rd March 2023, 05:30 PM

Welcome to the forum, Michael

. A bit confusing indeed. in Ramiro Larrañaga's work he extends this smiths name to ANDRÉS MARTINEZ DE GARRATE. He and his brother Gabriel (36) are sons of ZABALA. It could be that their father was JUAN MARTINEZ DE GARATA, ZABALA (46). We could consider that he is called el viejo (elder) by Palomares, to help distinguish him from JUAN MARTINEZ el mozo (younger) (42) in the table by their age, but not because they were familly.
Note that this is not 100% exact. It is known that the Palomares nomina contains a few inconsistencies. One thing we know as certain is that of JUAN MARTINEZ, that was active at an early stage, as listed in Lhermite's work (end XVI century), whose marks he describes are precisely the ones shown nowadays out there. Yet in Palomares nomina we can find not right name neither his full marks, which i suspect is listed in the table as JUAN MARTIN (39).
Confusing indeed

.
Other members will know more about this riddle.

.

10thRoyal · 23rd March 2023, 06:53 PM

I greatly appreciate the information Fernando, I never even considered that the two Juan Martinez's might not be related. Would also love to know what the meaning behind the words "Garata" and "Zabala" are.

And for completeness sake I've attached the rest of the photos I have. Just based on my amateur knowledge it looks like this is probably a composite sword. Or maybe not, I've been looking at so many of these that they are starting to blend together. The total length is 48 inches. I believe the reverse side of the blade reads "En Toledo Me Fecit". I had not even noticed the tiny anchor in the last photo until uploading these images.

fernando · 23rd March 2023, 09:55 PM

Are you sure it says EN TOLED ME FECIT ? Not a good sign. These "me fecit" inscritions are more seen in Solingen blades; you know, "Solingen me fecit" or "me fecit Solingen"

.
Can you take a closer picture ?

10thRoyal · 23rd March 2023, 10:01 PM

Now you have me worried. It's definitely Toledo. I don't have it on hand to give a better photo.

fernando · 24th March 2023, 11:49 AM

No reason to worry, Michael. I reckon i was premature. This Latin inscription also appears in Toledan swords; maybe not so often, but it does. The smith marks in this blade are reprehensible. No doubt this is a genuine blade.
Whether the hilt is not from the period, hopefuly more knowledgeable members will pop in and give their impression.

23rd March 2023, 03:21 PM	#1
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 78	Looking for information on Andres Martinez of Toledo Good afternoon all, I am looking for information on a Spanish sword smith that signed "Andres Martinez". Does anyone know of other examples of his work, any details about his career, or what years he was active? I was able to match the name and marking on a particular sword of interest to one of the Toledo armory catalogues (Andres Martinez) but have not been able to find much additional information besides the fact he is the "son of Zabala (de Garata)" which is not super helpful as there seems to be a younger and an elder by the Zabala name. Would love to hear any thoughts y'all might have. Best, Michael Attached Images

23rd March 2023, 05:30 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, Michael . A bit confusing indeed. in Ramiro Larrañaga's work he extends this smiths name to ANDRÉS MARTINEZ DE GARRATE. He and his brother Gabriel (36) are sons of ZABALA. It could be that their father was JUAN MARTINEZ DE GARATA, ZABALA (46). We could consider that he is called el viejo (elder) by Palomares, to help distinguish him from JUAN MARTINEZ el mozo (younger) (42) in the table by their age, but not because they were familly. Note that this is not 100% exact. It is known that the Palomares nomina contains a few inconsistencies. One thing we know as certain is that of JUAN MARTINEZ, that was active at an early stage, as listed in Lhermite's work (end XVI century), whose marks he describes are precisely the ones shown nowadays out there. Yet in Palomares nomina we can find not right name neither his full marks, which i suspect is listed in the table as JUAN MARTIN (39). Confusing indeed . Other members will know more about this riddle. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 23rd March 2023 at 06:22 PM.

23rd March 2023, 06:53 PM	#3
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 78	I greatly appreciate the information Fernando, I never even considered that the two Juan Martinez's might not be related. Would also love to know what the meaning behind the words "Garata" and "Zabala" are. And for completeness sake I've attached the rest of the photos I have. Just based on my amateur knowledge it looks like this is probably a composite sword. Or maybe not, I've been looking at so many of these that they are starting to blend together. The total length is 48 inches. I believe the reverse side of the blade reads "En Toledo Me Fecit". I had not even noticed the tiny anchor in the last photo until uploading these images. Attached Images

23rd March 2023, 10:01 PM	#5
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 78	Now you have me worried. It's definitely Toledo. I don't have it on hand to give a better photo. Attached Images

23rd March 2023, 09:55 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Are you sure it says EN TOLED ME FECIT ? Not a good sign. These "me fecit" inscritions are more seen in Solingen blades; you know, "Solingen me fecit" or "me fecit Solingen" . Can you take a closer picture ?

24th March 2023, 11:49 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No reason to worry, Michael. I reckon i was premature. This Latin inscription also appears in Toledan swords; maybe not so often, but it does. The smith marks in this blade are reprehensible. No doubt this is a genuine blade. Whether the hilt is not from the period, hopefuly more knowledgeable members will pop in and give their impression.