''Old'' dagger

francantolin · 30th October 2022, 10:09 PM

Hello dear members,

What do you think of this dagger ?
Said to be 19th century but from unknown origin...
The scabbard dont fit perfectly with the blade so I think ii's a replacement one...
The hilt is well made but dont look really old.. ?

M ELEY · 30th October 2022, 11:13 PM

Nice piece! The form of the hilt/pommel and even the blade reminds me of Scottish dirks. Many of these types have intricate carved 'knot' type grips, but others are more plain. Hard to tell if the grip is contemporary. If it had been wrapped with some type of material which later came off, the wood underneath might not be as oxidized as one might expect. Any markings on the blade?

francantolin · 1st November 2022, 06:15 PM

Thank s a lot for your message,
Yes it makes me too think to a dirk scottish dagger or something like that ...
Sadly no mark or stamp on the blade
Difficult to fix it......

francantolin · 1st November 2022, 06:29 PM

I take this opportunity to show you a ''fany'' ceremonial dirk a friend sold me:
Difficult ( for me and him) to age it and chose a correct price.
Stamp SCOTLAND and RA for Robert Allison ,
Must have silver fittings.
Maybe 1950-1970 made ? ( was the knife of his father...)

The stones ? I read about citrine but these one seems more orange: amber ? Simple piece of tainted carved glass ?

Can we perhaps date it with the SCOTLAND and RA mark ?
Kind regards and glad if specialists can help

BBking · 2nd November 2022, 09:38 PM

African origin for the first one I think ( with european scabbard ? )

Nice faceted ceremonial scottish dirk for the second piece
with the thistle pattern all over on silver (? ) mounts ...

age ???

M ELEY · 3rd November 2022, 12:39 AM

I had considered ethnographic/African as well, especially with the inlaid 'figure 8' brass similar to the circular 'eye' patterns, but I guess the Euro scabbard threw me off. Still, if African, where? Afghan? Perhaps a posting over on the Ethno side.

Yes, I love the second dirk. So hard to tell the age on these things, as many of the older ones remain 'minty'. From what I've seen on auction sites, catalogs and the few books I've got on all things Scot, I would place it in the 1860-1930ish time period unless an expert on cairngorms comes forward to prove what I say/guess as rubbish!

colin henshaw · 3rd November 2022, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello dear members,

What do you think of this dagger ?
Said to be 19th century but from unknown origin...
The scabbard dont fit perfectly with the blade so I think ii's a replacement one...
The hilt is well made but dont look really old.. ?

Seems like to be North African, Mauritania area, with those small brass inlays to the wooden hilt. Scabbard probably from a repurposed European bayonet or sword.... Interesting piece, probably 20th century ?

M ELEY · 4th November 2022, 03:42 AM

If Mauritanian/North African, perhaps a 'put-together' from WWII made by a local tribesman? Mussolini's forces were here and also Rommel (I think. My WW2 knowledge is minimal).

Perhaps we could see a closeup of the blade? If it's diamond-shaped in cross profile, I doubt the blade is African unless trade piece. The hilt, on the other hand...

francantolin · 4th November 2022, 01:40 PM

Hello,
Thank you all for the comments and interest,
Sadly I have no other pics for the moment,
I will receive it soon and make some pictures.

colin henshaw · 5th November 2022, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Perhaps we could see a closeup of the blade? If it's diamond-shaped in cross profile, I doubt the blade is African unless trade piece. The hilt, on the other hand...

The blades from the Mauritania area are often to be found with that same shallow diamond cross-section blade, as per this example. They are also to be found with straight blades.

M ELEY · 5th November 2022, 09:28 PM

Oh boy! Well, being that the blade is diamond-shaped, the pommel 'rough' and with brass inlay, I guess we've cinched it that it is probably African then. I wasn't aware of diamond-pattern blades from the continent.

30th October 2022, 10:09 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 885	''Old'' dagger Hello dear members, What do you think of this dagger ? Said to be 19th century but from unknown origin... The scabbard dont fit perfectly with the blade so I think ii's a replacement one... The hilt is well made but dont look really old.. ? Attached Images

1st November 2022, 06:29 PM	#4
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 885	I take this opportunity to show you a ''fany'' ceremonial dirk a friend sold me: Difficult ( for me and him) to age it and chose a correct price. Stamp SCOTLAND and RA for Robert Allison , Must have silver fittings. Maybe 1950-1970 made ? ( was the knife of his father...) The stones ? I read about citrine but these one seems more orange: amber ? Simple piece of tainted carved glass ? Can we perhaps date it with the SCOTLAND and RA mark ? Kind regards and glad if specialists can help Attached Images

30th October 2022, 11:13 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,102	Nice piece! The form of the hilt/pommel and even the blade reminds me of Scottish dirks. Many of these types have intricate carved 'knot' type grips, but others are more plain. Hard to tell if the grip is contemporary. If it had been wrapped with some type of material which later came off, the wood underneath might not be as oxidized as one might expect. Any markings on the blade?

1st November 2022, 06:15 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 885	Thank s a lot for your message, Yes it makes me too think to a dirk scottish dagger or something like that ... Sadly no mark or stamp on the blade Difficult to fix it......

2nd November 2022, 09:38 PM	#5
BBking Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 66	African origin for the first one I think ( with european scabbard ? ) Nice faceted ceremonial scottish dirk for the second piece with the thistle pattern all over on silver (? ) mounts ... age ???

3rd November 2022, 12:39 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,102	I had considered ethnographic/African as well, especially with the inlaid 'figure 8' brass similar to the circular 'eye' patterns, but I guess the Euro scabbard threw me off. Still, if African, where? Afghan? Perhaps a posting over on the Ethno side. Yes, I love the second dirk. So hard to tell the age on these things, as many of the older ones remain 'minty'. From what I've seen on auction sites, catalogs and the few books I've got on all things Scot, I would place it in the 1860-1930ish time period unless an expert on cairngorms comes forward to prove what I say/guess as rubbish!

4th November 2022, 03:42 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,102	If Mauritanian/North African, perhaps a 'put-together' from WWII made by a local tribesman? Mussolini's forces were here and also Rommel (I think. My WW2 knowledge is minimal). Perhaps we could see a closeup of the blade? If it's diamond-shaped in cross profile, I doubt the blade is African unless trade piece. The hilt, on the other hand...

4th November 2022, 01:40 PM	#9
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 885	Hello, Thank you all for the comments and interest, Sadly I have no other pics for the moment, I will receive it soon and make some pictures.

5th November 2022, 09:28 PM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,102	Oh boy! Well, being that the blade is diamond-shaped, the pommel 'rough' and with brass inlay, I guess we've cinched it that it is probably African then. I wasn't aware of diamond-pattern blades from the continent.