Anglo Indian sword - ID needed!

manishkulkarni · 8th April 2024, 01:02 PM

Hi All

I picked up this beautiful Anglo Indian sword at the Kempton park fair yesterday. It seems like a late 1700s french montmorency type blade and late 1800s blade, so it might be one of the french ruled or influenced princely states, or indeed British made blade in French style who knows!

But the royal crest on it remains a mystery, none of the experts at rhe fair had a clue and Google searches yielded nothing.

The scabbard is beautifully made and stitched using fine wire loops.

I'd be very grateful if any of you is able to identify the crest or tell me anything more about this sword - or indeed point to someone who might be able to help, I'd be truly very grateful!

Many thanks!

Manish

MacCathain · 8th April 2024, 11:39 PM

The "arrows" in the guard motif are reminiscent of depictions of Jupiter's thunderbolts, but the classic representation includes several other elements that aren't apparent here.

The rather crude casting of the guard suggests it wasn't made in western Europe. The hilt appears to be based on that of a p1822 British infantry officer's sword.

milandro · 9th April 2024, 03:03 PM

I would call this " lightning symbolism" on the guard , thunderbolts if you wish has a military connection with this symbol is communications, Telegraphists, Radio officer

kronckew · 16th April 2024, 01:20 AM

The wire loops used to sew up the scabbard are often found on Ottoman scabbards.

mariusgmioc · 16th April 2024, 10:34 AM

The scabbard is apparently a replacement and looks Turkish Ottoman.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2024, 08:38 PM

Certainly appears to be something produced during the British Raj in India, likely for some quasi military guard or police/security force, and inherently copying the British 'gothic' style officers hilts of 1822.

The cartouche on these typically had the cypher for Queen Victoria, however as British swordmakers later in the century began producing swords for other colonial entities, they often substituted pertinent other devices.

In this case, this is clearly a copy made in India replicating the feathered backstrap and cartouche in 'Gothic' structured hilt. The 'thunderbolts' likely represent the Vajra symbolism in Tantric Buddhism, and as noted, may apply to use of this sword in some uniform capacity for a unit as mentioned.

The scabbard is as noted an Ottoman associated (in style) example.

8th April 2024, 01:02 PM	#1
manishkulkarni Member Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 20	Anglo Indian sword - ID needed! Hi All I picked up this beautiful Anglo Indian sword at the Kempton park fair yesterday. It seems like a late 1700s french montmorency type blade and late 1800s blade, so it might be one of the french ruled or influenced princely states, or indeed British made blade in French style who knows! But the royal crest on it remains a mystery, none of the experts at rhe fair had a clue and Google searches yielded nothing. The scabbard is beautifully made and stitched using fine wire loops. I'd be very grateful if any of you is able to identify the crest or tell me anything more about this sword - or indeed point to someone who might be able to help, I'd be truly very grateful! Many thanks! Manish Attached Images

8th April 2024, 11:39 PM	#2
MacCathain Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 66	The "arrows" in the guard motif are reminiscent of depictions of Jupiter's thunderbolts, but the classic representation includes several other elements that aren't apparent here. The rather crude casting of the guard suggests it wasn't made in western Europe. The hilt appears to be based on that of a p1822 British infantry officer's sword.

9th April 2024, 03:03 PM	#3
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 476	I would call this " lightning symbolism" on the guard , thunderbolts if you wish has a military connection with this symbol is communications, Telegraphists, Radio officer

16th April 2024, 01:20 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	The wire loops used to sew up the scabbard are often found on Ottoman scabbards.

16th April 2024, 10:34 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	The scabbard is apparently a replacement and looks Turkish Ottoman.

16th April 2024, 08:38 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Certainly appears to be something produced during the British Raj in India, likely for some quasi military guard or police/security force, and inherently copying the British 'gothic' style officers hilts of 1822. The cartouche on these typically had the cypher for Queen Victoria, however as British swordmakers later in the century began producing swords for other colonial entities, they often substituted pertinent other devices. In this case, this is clearly a copy made in India replicating the feathered backstrap and cartouche in 'Gothic' structured hilt. The 'thunderbolts' likely represent the Vajra symbolism in Tantric Buddhism, and as noted, may apply to use of this sword in some uniform capacity for a unit as mentioned. The scabbard is as noted an Ottoman associated (in style) example.