SCHIAVONA SWORD VARIATIONS.

[VANDOO]

I HAVE ALWAYS LIKED THESE SWORDS BUT HAVEN'T SEEN ONE IN MY PRICE RANGE BUT PERHAPS A GOOD REFRENCE WITH PICTURES WOULD BE IN ORDER. MY KNOWLEGE OF THEM IS LIMITED BUT FROM WHAT I HAVE READ THEY WERE OF VENETIAN ORIGIN. THESE EXAMPLES ARE ALL SAID TO BE 17TH CENTURY EXAMPLES.
I HAVE ADDED PICTURES OF 6 VARIATIONS, FEEL FREE TO COMMENT OR ADD MORE EXAMPLES AND INFORMATION.

[tom hyle]

Venetian in use. However, used by central European/Slavic mercenaries, and the square cat head pommel is seen on other central European broadswords and is reminiscent of some katzbalger pommels.

[tom hyle]

Note the upturned rear quillon on two of these. Upturned rear quillons are certainly a thing one sees on European swords. This pertains to a thread about a Batangas/Luzon sword recently.
Note how the pommel lies within the basket.

[Gavin Nugent]

Great examples and a wonderful topic...what part of the Philippines are these from????.....seriously, I'd ask for this to be shifted to the EU forum where there is likely to be less head scratching :-P

Gav

[fernando]

You are quite right Barry, in that these Venetian Schiavonas are always selling for prohibited prices.
I too dream of having one

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by fernando

You are quite right Barry, in that these Venetian Schiavonas are always selling for prohibited prices.
I too dream of having one

I quickly checked my collection.
Nope, no schiavonas in my cupboard.
If I where a richman, these would be on my list "to buy" together with a claymore. I like the extravagant type of handprotection.

These are indeed pretty rare.
But I am sure there must be forumite(s) who own them.
Otherwise surely there will be some info around.

Best regards,
Willem

[VANDOO]

STONES SAYS
"THE VENETIAN BROADSWORD OF THE 16TH CENTURY. IT HAS A BROAD, STRAIGHT BLADE WITH A VERY HEAVY ELABORATE BASKET HILT THAT COVERS THE ENTIRE HAND. THE NAME IS DERIVED FROM SCHIAVONI, HIRED SOLDIERS. THE SCOTCH BROADSWORD OF THE 17TH CENTURY AND LATER IS COPIED FROM IT. "
CAN'T ADD MUCH MORE TO THAT EXCEPT THE POMMEL IS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS A CATS HEAD DUE TO ITS SHAPE. ADDED THE LAST TWO PICTURES IN MY FILES.

[Jim McDougall]

This is an excellent topic Barry! and I'm really glad you posted it. Ironically, its rather a good thing that you inadvertantly posted this distinctly European topic on the Ethnographic Forum, as having it moved to the correct forum may have heightened some awareness that there IS a European Forum
It seems after years, many readers and even some members are completely unaware of the 'three' forums here, or the search and archives functions which truly serve well at providing outstanding research resources.

One of the reasons the 'schiavona' is such a great topic is due to, like many weapons, the many misperceptions about them....the fact that they are wonderfully beautiful and historic weapons not withstanding. I have been of course digging through notes to try to recapture some of this material from some years ago.

Actually the sword we know as the schiavona was popularized by its well known use by the bodyguards of the Doge of Venice, who were most often actually Dalmatian's and serving there from Venice's colonial control of Dalmatia as one of its Adriatic holdings. There has been considerable debate over the source of the term for these swords, which may derive from the earliest reference to some type of sword termed 'spada schiavonesche' (1391). In modern Italian the term 'schiavo' means slave, however it seems that 'schiavona' in earlier Venetian parlance actually pertained to 'a woman', this suggesting the feminine colloquial terming of the sword (known as the 'Queen' of weapons). This is supported by an early portrait of a lady by Titian titled "La Schiavona". The Slavonian association presumably would have called for the term for Slavic people, which is 'Slavo' in Italian, and it seems unlikely that these rather elite bodyguards would have been considered 'slaves' in any sense.

It seems the form of the schiavona is most likely derived from 14th and 15th century hilt styles from Hungary and the Balkans, which would include in many cases the distinctive 'cats head' type squared pommels. These may in some way be associated with the well known 'katzbalger' swords of German mercenaries in these times, as some schiavona type hilts in thier more developed form are known among variations of katzbalgers (Wagner, "Cut and Thrust"). The term 'cat' was a colloquial application having to do with 'fighting' in the alley cat sense, a scrapper. The Hungarian influences are well placed as the Dalmatian territories were under thier control until ceded to Venice in the 15th century with influences well emplaced.

Probably the most notorious representation of the schiavona swords were from a number of them associated with the mysterious 'Council of Ten' of Venice which are typically marked 'CX' accordingly (see "The Rapier and Smallsword 1400-1820" , A.V.B. Norman).

The developed 'trellis' style basket hilts ('gitterkorb') seem to have been fully developed by the 18th century, when these swords gained most of thier notoriety. It is important to note here that it is now generally accepted that the schiavona while having some superficial likeness to the Scottish baskethilt (often termed claymore somewhat incorrectly, these are the 'great swords'). ..there is no direct connect, particularly developmentally. This misperception was construed in the fervor of some late 19th century Scottish writers, and almost immediately contested by Lord Archibald Campbell (1899). The great arms historian Holger Jacobsen of Denmark in 1940 showed that while these are similar in appearance, there are no constructional similarities sufficient to warrant any direct connection. It has also been well proven that the Scottish basket hilt evolved primarily from North European swords of the type known as 'Sinclair Sabres' (another misnomer for another time) and actually predated most of the developed trellis hilts of the schiavona.

I do know that the schiavona, while mostly associated in developed form from latter 17th through the 18th century, was still in use traditionally as late as the Napoleonic period. I have seen one with hilt in asymmetrical trellis form, with typical 18th century backsword blade (these did become cavalry weapons as well). It is inscribed 'VIVA FERNANDO IV' and 'RE DELLE DVE SICILIE' on the blade, which is to Ferdinand I (1751-1825) who was King of the Two Sicilies (Naples & Sicily) as reconstituted at Napoleons defeat in 1815, thus placing the sword in that period. It should be noted the use of the schiavona was well known throughout Italy, Spain and the Balkans in these centuries, though primarly associated with Venice as mentioned earlier.

Like most vintage European swords, these are often expensive, however relatively affordable in many cases but it takes of course some good research and networking. I think I have photos of the schiavona I mentioned and will post as soon as located.

All best regards,
Jim

PS extremely nice photos posted Barry!!! and thank you again for bringing up the topic. Hopefully you or anyone out there who has examples of these or who is inspired to acquire one will share it here, as well as any other data or thoughts on the material I have presented.

[tom hyle]

I had posted a reply, perhaps right about as this was being forum jumped.
Jim seems to have covered about everything in it, and in greater depth and articulation, anyway; hand of fate there.
There seems to be some association in central Europe of cat's head pommels with professional soldiers.
I would think "mortuary" hilts are a close relative/ancestor of the Scottish basket hilts. Certainly not the schiavona in any direct way.
Lovely sword type, most distinct to my eye, not for the formation of the basket by 2 or more rings covered by leaflike bars that radiate from the front, as by the cat's head pommel, the long blade, and the position of the pommel within the guard.
Note the pommel is usually brass, the guard steel.
I like the pierced poison-holes in the one blade.
Lovely photos, but I do notice a thing is happening that sometimes happens, which is the showing of just the hilts.

[ariel]

Is this a schiavona variation? Just sold on e-bay for <$250 :-)

[Enibas]

The pommel of course is the cat-head's-pommel we know from the sciavona.
Your sword is conform to a type of naval weapon which was used in 17th century by mercenaries of venice.
Typical is the cat-heads-pommel, the guard and a rather short blade.

So at first we have to define, what is a sciavona variation?
Which are characteristics of the sciavona? Most important characteristics of sciavona:
1)The cat-heads-pommel (iron, brass, rarely silver or other)
2) the blade must be fit for cut
3) a basket hilt

Do you agree?

My opinioin:
In remote sense can your sword be described as Sciavona variation (Pommel, blade). Presumably this was not a weapon used by dalmatian mercenaries, who were usually as foot-soldier in the service of Venice during the 17th/18th century, but startet their mercenary career as naval figthers during the Middle ages (Boccia). Probably there were dalmatians still in the navy around 1700 and used this type, but this is bold speculated.

I think, other figthers enjoyed sciavona variations - like us

[Matchlock]

Hi Ben,

English auction catalogs use the expression shell-guard for the German word Stichblatt.
Durchbrochenes Stichblatt is pierced shell-guard.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

Is this a schiavona variation?

Maybe a one only setup (composite), instead ?

[Enibas]

Good morning to all.
Thank you for help with english term, Matchlock.

Fernando, of course the "naval sword" Ariel shows to us could be a composite one. The type is quickly done from old and new parts.
A final assessment of the authenticity by photo is not possible.

But the type (cat-head-pommel, shell, knuckleguard and short blade fit for cut) is not an individual case.
So I am going to view my images from the doge's palace, if there is the type in the this fantastic collection. If I find one or some, I will post it.

[BerberDagger]

the last exemple from ariel reply is a venetian naval sword called "Fanti del Mar" , it is a nice exemple but composite and a later exemple...
they was used by the venetian infantry troups called like the sword fanti del mar in italian , actually lagunari in Venice ( a modern military section ).

Here one of my differents exemples I had . This one with venetian arsenal mark.

[Bob Hurley]

Here are photos of another schiavona for consideration and member comments. I purchased this recently at auction because I love the look of schiavonas. This sword has some interesting characteristics. The auction description listed as 18th century in the style of 16th century. Based upon another member's comments about the mouse ladder of the guard, it appears to be after 1750. the overall length of the sword is 40 3/4 inches and the blade itself measures 34 1/2". The blade is also very interesting as it has an inscription "INTI DOMNNI" and a mark which appears to be the Passau wolf. I found a web link to an opinion about this inscription. The writer believes it means something like "my esteemed lord's gift or property". Based on an often displayed chart of the design of the wolf, it is from 16th century. If the blade is German, could this still be a Venetian schiavona or dalmation schiavona? The sword is in good condition except that the wire guard which attaches to the pommel seems to be broken. The pommel is in the cat's head design, but has a flower outline instead of a cat or lion's face as we have seen with other schiavonas. Also the grip may very well be a replacement since it is a wire wrapped style and not leather wrapped as would likely have been in original condition. So what does everyone think? Is this a composite sword with a blade from a different source, or is this an original sword with a replacement grip? Any ideas on true age based on the design? Thank you all very much for looking and providing your opinions and guidance. I am a brand new member and have just begun collecting in the last year.

[asomotif]

Not my field of collecting, but I saw a few schiavona's in Genoa in Castel D'Albertis museum.

Best regards,
Willem

[fernando]

Beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

[kronckew]

i've always thought they looked cool, but as noted earlier, the originals are well above my pay grade. especially in useable condition.

then their was the TV series 'The Three Musketeers', aside from their incredulous and horrendously inaccurate leather clothing/armour their rapiers were interesting. porthos' especially. he appears to carry a schiavona unlike the other two. (see attached photo)

of course, someone decided to cash in and make reasonable 'munitions' grade replicas for the reenactors market. i now have my schavona, the blade is HC steel, hardened , tempered and razor sharp. 1.5kg. it'll do as a place holder until i win the lottery. not a 'cats' head pommel, tho i did see one of the originals way above in this thread, post 46, labelled 93 (nr. 126) with a similar pommel.