Help to identify these unusual markings.

CutlassCollector · 18th July 2017, 10:38 PM

Hi can anyone help identify these markings.

There are two stamps an M surmounted by a crown and a B surmounted by a crown, both in ovals. These probably indicate that the axe was made in France but for which country?
There is a large crown with initials below and a grappling hook possibly signifying a navy.

The markings are on the top of a boarding axe.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
Regards, CC.

CSinTX · 19th July 2017, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

There is a large crown with initials below

That stamp looks British to me.

corrado26 · 19th July 2017, 10:44 AM

There is a bigger marking with a ligated "FR" under a crown. This is IMHO the mark of the "Fabricca Reale di Napoli", the Royal Factory of Naples in Italy.
Regards
corrado26

corrado26 · 19th July 2017, 11:04 AM

The marking "B" could be a controlmark of Michele Battista who worked as "Capo Maestro" in the factory of Naples together between 1770 and 1780 with G. Morelli, whose mark might be the "M".
corrado26

CutlassCollector · 19th July 2017, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

The marking "B" could be a controlmark of Michele Battista who worked as "Capo Maestro" in the factory of Naples together between 1770 and 1780 with G. Morelli, whose mark might be the "M".
corrado26

Good thought, Corrado, and I have had a look in that direction but have not found much yet to match the crown or more on the control marks. Do you have any links to guide me further?

Regards, CC

corrado26 · 19th July 2017, 06:31 PM

Don't forget: Links can never replace books! Have a look in the "NEUE STÖCKEL vol. 1-3.
corrado26

CutlassCollector · 19th July 2017, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSinTX

That stamp looks British to me.

I see what you mean the script is close to what is used to indicate British kings and queens but I don't think this is British.

Regards, CC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2017, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

Hi can anyone help identify these markings.

There are two stamps an M surmounted by a crown and a B surmounted by a crown, both in ovals. These probably indicate that the axe was made in France but for which country?
There is a large crown with initials below and a grappling hook possibly signifying a navy.

The markings are on the top of a boarding axe.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
Regards, CC.

Please see http://www.boardingaxe.com/notboardingaxes.html

CutlassCollector · 21st July 2017, 12:19 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,

Thanks for that link to my own website haha!
I think it is a boarding axe but I could be wrong as it is unusual for a humble axe to be so well marked.
Do you have any specific reason for thinking it's another type of axe?

This is where I am so far.

If Corrado is right, and I hope he is, that gives me not only a state but a date as well.

But I also have a match for a crowned M and B at Klingenthal around 1860 when they were producing weapons for private purchase and possibly other states.
Also as far as I can find on the web the markings for Fabricca Reale di Napoli generally show as FR not RF.

Any help greatly appreciated!

Regards, CC

corrado26 · 21st July 2017, 02:45 PM

Here are the marks used at the Klingenthal arms factory
corrado26

fernando · 21st July 2017, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... I think it is a boarding axe but I could be wrong as it is unusual for a humble axe to be so well marked....

I would be more amazed with the fact that, its head looking like the real thing, has no langets fixing it to the handle ... or is this a common feature, CC ?

.

CutlassCollector · 21st July 2017, 04:08 PM

Many thanks Corrado.
The only match for a crowned M and B is later on in the 1860's and these records are not so reliable as when Klingenthal was producing for the government.
Do you have pictures of the B and M stamps and the crown for Fabricca Reale di Napoli, then I could compare?

Regards CC

CutlassCollector · 21st July 2017, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I would be more amazed with the fact that, its head looking like the real thing, has no langets fixing it to the handle ... or is this a common feature, CC ?

.

Hi Fernando,

Yes you are absolutely right, langets would be very much normal for a boarding axe. The owner - a museum in the US - are sure it is a replacement handle and I think the langets are just missing.

I have not yet been able to identify this type of axe. I know of five of this style and they are always described as French but I have always had doubts about this.

Of the two I have measurements for: the blade to point is 10 ¼ and 10 ¾ inches and blade tip to tip 6 ¼ and 5 ¾ respectively.
They all have in common the wide head with very long down curving spike, big crescent shaped blade, short inset langets with rounded heads where they protrude and long handles.
The handle on two (I think with original handles) is round in the lower part but is shaped into 4 sided with 4 facets at the top – this allows the langets to be inset into a flat surface.
Only one held by a collector in Maine has any marking and that is a barely visible anchor.

I'm hoping that the markings on this one may lead to a pattern for a particular State.

Regards, CC

fernando · 21st July 2017, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

...The owner - a museum in the US - are sure it is a replacement handle and I think the langets are just missing...

I thought of that; even originally suggested it in my post but then ... i hesitated

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd July 2017, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

Hi Ibrahiim,

Thanks for that link to my own website haha!
I think it is a boarding axe but I could be wrong as it is unusual for a humble axe to be so well marked.
Do you have any specific reason for thinking it's another type of axe?

This is where I am so far.

If Corrado is right, and I hope he is, that gives me not only a state but a date as well.

But I also have a match for a crowned M and B at Klingenthal around 1860 when they were producing weapons for private purchase and possibly other states.
Also as far as I can find on the web the markings for Fabricca Reale di Napoli generally show as FR not RF.

Any help greatly appreciated!

Regards, CC

And I have to say what a well laid out web page it is!!!!

CutlassCollector · 24th July 2017, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

And I have to say what a well laid out web page it is!!!!

Thank you Ibrahiim!

CutlassCollector · 24th July 2017, 07:21 PM

Corrado,

Please may I ask your help again.
I have been looking hard and I can find examples of an R or an R and F entwined beneath a crown indicating manufacturer at Fabricca Reale di Napoli.

This is the link - http://www.klingenthal.fr/marquages_coulaux.htm - to the stamps of the Klingenthal inspectors after the loss of the government contracts - it is stated as not so accurate as the government records. There is a crowned B and a crowned M that may have been working together around 1850/1860 - the dates are not precise. The M has a three point crown similar to the one shown on the axe. I would like to discount these to be certain that the axe was made in Naples.

Does your copy of the NEUE STÖCKEL show images of the stamps for that I could use for comparison?

Regards CC.

18th July 2017, 10:38 PM	#1
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Help to identify these unusual markings. Hi can anyone help identify these markings. There are two stamps an M surmounted by a crown and a B surmounted by a crown, both in ovals. These probably indicate that the axe was made in France but for which country? There is a large crown with initials below and a grappling hook possibly signifying a navy. The markings are on the top of a boarding axe. Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Regards, CC. Attached Images

21st July 2017, 02:45 PM	#10
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Here are the marks used at the Klingenthal arms factory corrado26 Attached Images

19th July 2017, 10:44 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	There is a bigger marking with a ligated "FR" under a crown. This is IMHO the mark of the "*Fabricca Reale di Napoli*", the Royal Factory of Naples in Italy. Regards corrado26

19th July 2017, 11:04 AM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	The marking "B" could be a controlmark of Michele Battista who worked as "Capo Maestro" in the factory of Naples together between 1770 and 1780 with G. Morelli, whose mark might be the "M". corrado26

19th July 2017, 06:31 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Don't forget: Links can never replace books! Have a look in the "NEUE STÖCKEL vol. 1-3. corrado26

21st July 2017, 12:19 PM	#9
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Hi Ibrahiim, Thanks for that link to my own website haha! I think it is a boarding axe but I could be wrong as it is unusual for a humble axe to be so well marked. Do you have any specific reason for thinking it's another type of axe? This is where I am so far. If Corrado is right, and I hope he is, that gives me not only a state but a date as well. But I also have a match for a crowned M and B at Klingenthal around 1860 when they were producing weapons for private purchase and possibly other states. Also as far as I can find on the web the markings for Fabricca Reale di Napoli generally show as FR not RF. Any help greatly appreciated! Regards, CC

21st July 2017, 04:08 PM	#12
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Many thanks Corrado. The only match for a crowned M and B is later on in the 1860's and these records are not so reliable as when Klingenthal was producing for the government. Do you have pictures of the B and M stamps and the crown for Fabricca Reale di Napoli, then I could compare? Regards CC

24th July 2017, 07:21 PM	#17
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Corrado, Please may I ask your help again. I have been looking hard and I can find examples of an R or an R and F entwined beneath a crown indicating manufacturer at Fabricca Reale di Napoli. This is the link - http://www.klingenthal.fr/marquages_coulaux.htm - to the stamps of the Klingenthal inspectors after the loss of the government contracts - it is stated as not so accurate as the government records. There is a crowned B and a crowned M that may have been working together around 1850/1860 - the dates are not precise. The M has a three point crown similar to the one shown on the axe. I would like to discount these to be certain that the axe was made in Naples. Does your copy of the NEUE STÖCKEL show images of the stamps for that I could use for comparison? Regards CC.