Timor sword, Surik?

Athanase · 25th April 2018, 11:41 PM

Hello,

Here is my first Timor sword, but I don't know is name. Is it a Surik? and the region where from. I know that there are very many tribes in Timor, and each in a specific sword, but it is one of the regions of Indonesia that I do not know anything about.

kai · 26th April 2018, 06:19 PM

Hello Séverin,

Quote:

Here is my first Timor sword, but I don't know is name. Is it a Surik? and the region where from. I know that there are very many tribes in Timor, and each in a specific sword

Considering that names most likely changed from one ethnic group to the next or so, I'd avoid the name game and concentrate on narrowing down its origin which may also be one of the many islands close to Timor - Karel (in Albert's standard reference book) referred to these fairly related cultures and their region as "Timor group."

Your hilt resembles Karel's "type b" (especially from Pantar - however, these tend to have less hair). I'm attaching a pic of a sword from Timor proper that exhibits an even more abstract hilt (without any hair and even more slender). I can't recall seeing anything close to your scabbard (Fig. 587 from SW Timor in AvZ has quite limited similarities). I'll try to solicit a response from Karel...

BTW, your piece seems to have some age - I'm less sure about the brass nails of the scabbard though. The hair apparently got replaced fairly recently: On top of the pommel, the hair seems to be inserted into holes (I guess these look old?); however, I'm weary about the hair at the underside of the pommel - apparently strands of hair got glued into incisions that look like later modifications of an originally "beard-less" pommel!

The blade looks quite thick and has interesting marks at the base - probably these were already on the original blade, probably a trade blade that got recycled into a Timor group sword. (Unusual to have any marks close to the edge though!)

Please add the dimensions (length, thickness, etc.) for your piece - this may help!

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 26th April 2018, 10:47 PM

Hello Séverin,

I agree with Kai that's not very important to give your sword a regional name and would also go with the from Kai given origin, Karel Sirags classification in Alberts book.
Many Timor swords have blades with European origin, I think that your very nice sword has also a recycled European blade. And I think that we need many close ups from your sword. Hair on both sides of the hilt is a common feature, see here for example: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=timor
But like Kai I think that the hair get renovated and isn't old like the sword, please post close ups from the base from hair tufts. This could get renovated in Indonesia by the current owner, I know that this is a common practice on the Easter Timor Islands when old/antique swords get used by ceremonies.
So please post many pics with close ups. When you ever get tired to look at your sword I would be glad to give it a new home!

Regards,
Detlef

Athanase · 26th April 2018, 10:57 PM

Sorry, I forgot the dimention.
Full lenght (scabbard + Handle) 65cm
Blade lenght : 43cm
Blade thickness : 4mm

It is not visible in the photo, but before the crescent moon there is a sun with its rays.

The hair is tied together at the base by another hair and there is indeed a kind of thin layer of glue.
In view of the wear of the open holes on the sides of the handle, I actually think it was replaced, but probably on timor, before the sword was brought back to Europe.

I saw a copy very close to your picture at another antique dealer who lived in East Timor, he had one saber of Savu, one of Alor, and 3 other kinds of swords very close to each other but in the same style as that of your image but with hair and handles more ornate.

Athanase · 1st May 2018, 11:13 AM

On the side with the least amount of hair, the holes are more centered and there is some simple geometric decoration between the tufts of hair.
It actually makes me think that these holes were pierced late because with the addition of these hairs, the engravings become invisible.
This seems to be in way with what Kai suggested.

Athanase · 1st May 2018, 11:44 AM

On the side with the least amount of hair, the holes are more centered and there is some simple geometric decoration between the tufts of hair.
It actually makes me think that these holes were pierced late because with the addition of these hairs, the engravings become invisible.
This seems to be in way with what Kai suggested.

25th April 2018, 11:41 PM	#1
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Timor sword, Surik? Hello, Here is my first Timor sword, but I don't know is name. Is it a Surik? and the region where from. I know that there are very many tribes in Timor, and each in a specific sword, but it is one of the regions of Indonesia that I do not know anything about. Attached Images

26th April 2018, 10:57 PM	#4
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Sorry, I forgot the dimention. Full lenght (scabbard + Handle) 65cm Blade lenght : 43cm Blade thickness : 4mm It is not visible in the photo, but before the crescent moon there is a sun with its rays. The hair is tied together at the base by another hair and there is indeed a kind of thin layer of glue. In view of the wear of the open holes on the sides of the handle, I actually think it was replaced, but probably on timor, before the sword was brought back to Europe. I saw a copy very close to your picture at another antique dealer who lived in East Timor, he had one saber of Savu, one of Alor, and 3 other kinds of swords very close to each other but in the same style as that of your image but with hair and handles more ornate. Attached Images Last edited by Athanase; 26th April 2018 at 11:26 PM.

26th April 2018, 10:47 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Hello Séverin, I agree with Kai that's not very important to give your sword a regional name and would also go with the from Kai given origin, Karel Sirags classification in Alberts book. Many Timor swords have blades with European origin, I think that your very nice sword has also a recycled European blade. And I think that we need many close ups from your sword. Hair on both sides of the hilt is a common feature, see here for example: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=timor But like Kai I think that the hair get renovated and isn't old like the sword, please post close ups from the base from hair tufts. This could get renovated in Indonesia by the current owner, I know that this is a common practice on the Easter Timor Islands when old/antique swords get used by ceremonies. So please post many pics with close ups. When you ever get tired to look at your sword I would be glad to give it a new home! Regards, Detlef

1st May 2018, 11:13 AM	#5
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	On the side with the least amount of hair, the holes are more centered and there is some simple geometric decoration between the tufts of hair. It actually makes me think that these holes were pierced late because with the addition of these hairs, the engravings become invisible. This seems to be in way with what Kai suggested.

1st May 2018, 11:44 AM	#6
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	On the side with the least amount of hair, the holes are more centered and there is some simple geometric decoration between the tufts of hair. It actually makes me think that these holes were pierced late because with the addition of these hairs, the engravings become invisible. This seems to be in way with what Kai suggested.