Warning to bid by Schuler auctions Zürich

Sajen · 23rd March 2019, 04:53 PM

Hello,

I want to give all members a warning when you bid by Schuler auctions Zürich in Switzerland, I've won there for a very reasonable price the panabas I've shown in the previous thread but get really shocked when I contacted the packing/shipping organisation the auction house work together with. They want to have for this service without shipping insurance or custom tax (the Switzerland isn't member of the EU) for this piece which is just 55 cm long 195 CHF (approx. $196 / 173,45 EU)!

Please note, the Switzerland is a direct neighbour from Germany. I wonder about the price when they need to ship to the States or Australia!

I am now going with bus (Flix Bus, one way approx. 30,- EU) to Zürich next week and pick up it byself. When you are situated more far away you will have a great problem when you have purchased something by them! Please note my words before you will bid by Schuler!

Detlef

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd March 2019, 05:03 PM

Was it not possible to choose another firm by your own choice?

Jens

Sajen · 23rd March 2019, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Was it not possible to choose another firm by your own choice?

Hi Jens,

Yes, I think it would have been possible but I wasn't successful to find online a organisation who offered this service!

I think that the pick up byself is the cheapest way to get my panabas but it is very time-consuming and arduous!

Regards,
Detlef

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd March 2019, 05:33 PM

Yes you are right. About 600 km each way - so about 7 hours twice:-(.

Sajen · 23rd March 2019, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes you are right. About 600 km each way - so about 7 hours twice:-(.

It's with a bus, so 11 hours one way!

Tim Simmons · 23rd March 2019, 07:31 PM

If the UK leaves the EU it will put the kibosh on buying from anywhere unless you have money to burn.

ALEX · 23rd March 2019, 11:22 PM

I am not a proponent of high shipping costs, but these auctions do not pack and ship themselves. They do not share the shipping cost as some eBay sellers do. They contract full service packing/shipping companies. This service is never cheap. Anyone who ever dealt with any full service shipper would not be surprised by the cost. It would be outrageous if they'd offer a free/discount shipping and then charge, but they state 3rd party packing/shipping on their websites, and one can always inquiry about the cost before the purchase.

A. G. Maisey · 24th March 2019, 12:49 AM

If a business has, let us say, "creative" management, it might create a separate business entity to handle its packing and shipping, that way the packing and shipping would be done by a third party, one business entity handles sale, a different business entity handles packing & shipping, but both business entities have the same owner.

It all comes back to the bottom line, and if that bottom line is more than we want to pay, well, we simply don't buy.

So --- what happens?

The private seller, like Detlef, like me, will compress costs, carry costs sometimes lose a little, sometimes make a little. We can do this because we do not rely on what we sell to make a living, we sell for other reasons, and maybe there is an element of hobby in the actual act of selling.

But a regulated business that is compelled to act in a businesslike fashion?

That is a different story.

It is simply not possible to condemn any charge that a business may choose to apply unless we know the internal factors that generate that charge.

From the point of view of a consumer we can appraise charges made by comparable business entities, and if the charges applied by the one we wish to do business with are not on a competitive level with other similar business entities we simply exercise our freedom of choice and avoid doing business with the entity that charges fees which in our opinion are too high.

In your case Detlef, you have bought from a business that in your opinion charges too much. OK, maybe they do. But maybe it is because of their business model, maybe it is because of where they are located, maybe it is some other reason. But we cannot call them ripoff merchants until we know more about the reasons for their high charges.

The easy way to handle this sort of situation is, in my opinion, simply not to do business with any business entity that charges noticeably more than similar business entities for comparable goods or services.

The market place has a way or sorting out those who survive, and those who go under.

Victrix · 24th March 2019, 02:00 AM

The auction houses clearly make far too much money. What other business takes 50% of an object’s value (say 25% from the seller and 25% from the buyer) as commission as a mere intermediary (never using his own capital to become the owner of the object)? Presumably they get credit from their suppliers and demand immediate cash only payment from clients which can be used to pay creditors. So the cash flow must be highly positive. And the earnings are achieved in a fairly small period of time.

Unfortunately for auctioneers, online and etrade should push down commissions over time if only buyers can trust sellers.

I think logistics service companies are very opportunistic. They will charge as much as they can, even as there are severe price pressures in the industry at large due to competition. Again, when people can book transport online charges will come down. Some actors use blockchain for tracking etc.

A. G. Maisey · 24th March 2019, 03:34 AM

Do auction houses make too much money?

I understand "--- make too much money---" as "make too high a profit".

In simple terms, a profit can never be too high, if any business entity can extract high returns from the market it services, that means it must be doing something right --- and if it is not doing something right, you can bet on it, it will go under.

Then we have the case of Bonhams, elite, old UK firm. Not long ago I think they sold out to a private equity firm. Why did they sell? Why did a private equity firm buy? I'd be very interested in the reasons.

But maybe we think that a business entity is charging too high a rate for what it provides?

We could perhaps start by looking at share prices.

Since ebay is an auction company, we might start with ebay.

Then do a comparative analysis of ebay with houses like Sothebys & Christies.

There's a nice exercise for somebody with time to spare:- do an analysis of the viability of auction houses as investment vehicles.

Or forget all of that bean counter nonsense--- that I've spent most of my life on --- and simply say, "well I reckon they charge too much", and walk away.

Which, as a both a buyer & seller, is what I did years ago.

Then again, perhaps we might like to consider the integrity question. Anybody here ever been involved in the auction of real estate?

Personally I want nothing at all to do with auctions.

ariel · 24th March 2019, 03:56 PM

Under normal circumstances the eBay or some auction houses state shipping prices from the get go. The buyer can calculate the total and make an informed decision whether to bid or not.
The problem comes when the buyer has info only about the auction side of the story including auction fees. Then, suddenly, shipping company comes into play and can quote outrageous fees.
The buyer then faces a dilemma: to pay the shipper a sum that makes the entire deal financially crazy or cancel the entire deal. But the auction has the buyer’s credit card number, charges it and on top of that starts collecting storage fees.

I faced such a situation once with a European source. Had to pay.....

Fortunately, nothing similar happened with the US shipping services. Sure, the costs were exaggerated, but tolerably so.

Personally, I think that the “righteous indignation” decision to travel ( as described here) makes very little practical sense: the trip will cost €60 for the tickets plus some more for travel meals plus a cab for the trip from the bus station to and from the auction house, but a whole day of life will be lost. Buyer’s “savings” come up to ~ €8 per hour, about as high as Burger King’s hamburger flipper’s minimal wage.

But still, a pox on both the auction and the shipping houses!

Jens Nordlunde · 24th March 2019, 11:17 PM

Hello Detlef,

I dont think you did anything wronge in warning others - just the oppesite.
I think this must be an eye opener for others who want to buy on auctions - check the extras before you start bidding.
I do understand your frustration about the trip to Zurich, and something like that would also make me quite sour.
However, I never buy from auction houses - last time, I think, it must have been in the 1970'ies, and then only one katar.

Jens

Mel H · 27th March 2019, 10:52 PM

I've bought many items from auction here in the UK over a long period of time, I do think that the buyers commission at anything up to 27% is too high but the only answer is to accept it, then calculate it into your final price and try not to exceed it. The problem that I'm finding in recent times is that many of the courier companies now have in their terms a standard prohibition on carrying 'dangerous weapons' and refuse outright to carry swords of any type.

Rick · 28th March 2019, 08:57 AM

It's a thin line that separates simply bitching and actionable libel/slander/defamation of character suits these days; especially when specific venues or Sellers are mentioned and criticised .

That's not what we are here for.

Kubur · 28th March 2019, 06:40 PM

Like our Irish friend I noticed that the small auctioneers are very fine.
Sometimes cheaper than shipping companies.
The big ones are the bad ones.

vilhelmsson · 28th March 2019, 08:09 PM

Not to be unsympathetic, but I'd recommend checking in with the auction house before you bid for a shipping estimate in writing. Then you can, in good conscience, hold them to it or walk.

I think you'll notice that it is quite difficult to find disparaging information about even the marginal auction houses online because they go to great effort to satisfy customers who can document that they were wronged.

23rd March 2019, 04:53 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Warning to bid by Schuler auctions Zürich Hello, I want to give all members a warning when you bid by Schuler auctions Zürich in Switzerland, I've won there for a very reasonable price the panabas I've shown in the previous thread but get really shocked when I contacted the packing/shipping organisation the auction house work together with. They want to have for this service without shipping insurance or custom tax (the Switzerland isn't member of the EU) for this piece which is just 55 cm long 195 CHF (approx. $196 / 173,45 EU)! Please note, the Switzerland is a direct neighbour from Germany. I wonder about the price when they need to ship to the States or Australia! I am now going with bus (Flix Bus, one way approx. 30,- EU) to Zürich next week and pick up it byself. When you are situated more far away you will have a great problem when you have purchased something by them! Please note my words before you will bid by Schuler! Detlef

24th March 2019, 03:56 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Under normal circumstances the eBay or some auction houses state shipping prices from the get go. The buyer can calculate the total and make an informed decision whether to bid or not. The problem comes when the buyer has info only about the auction side of the story including auction fees. Then, suddenly, shipping company comes into play and can quote outrageous fees. The buyer then faces a dilemma: to pay the shipper a sum that makes the entire deal financially crazy or cancel the entire deal. But the auction has the buyer’s credit card number, charges it and on top of that starts collecting storage fees. I faced such a situation once with a European source. Had to pay..... Fortunately, nothing similar happened with the US shipping services. Sure, the costs were exaggerated, but tolerably so. Personally, I think that the “righteous indignation” decision to travel ( as described here) makes very little practical sense: the trip will cost €60 for the tickets plus some more for travel meals plus a cab for the trip from the bus station to and from the auction house, but a whole day of life will be lost. Buyer’s “savings” come up to ~ €8 per hour, about as high as Burger King’s hamburger flipper’s minimal wage. But still, a pox on both the auction and the shipping houses! Last edited by ariel; 24th March 2019 at 04:18 PM.

24th March 2019, 11:17 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hello Detlef, I dont think you did anything wronge in warning others - just the oppesite. I think this must be an eye opener for others who want to buy on auctions - check the extras before you start bidding. I do understand your frustration about the trip to Zurich, and something like that would also make me quite sour. However, I never buy from auction houses - last time, I think, it must have been in the 1970'ies, and then only one katar. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 25th March 2019 at 12:08 PM.

27th March 2019, 10:52 PM	#13
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	I've bought many items from auction here in the UK over a long period of time, I do think that the buyers commission at anything up to 27% is too high but the only answer is to accept it, then calculate it into your final price and try not to exceed it. The problem that I'm finding in recent times is that many of the courier companies now have in their terms a standard prohibition on carrying 'dangerous weapons' and refuse outright to carry swords of any type. Last edited by Mel H; 28th March 2019 at 03:58 PM.

23rd March 2019, 05:03 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Was it not possible to choose another firm by your own choice? Jens

23rd March 2019, 05:33 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes you are right. About 600 km each way - so about 7 hours twice:-(.

23rd March 2019, 07:31 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	If the UK leaves the EU it will put the kibosh on buying from anywhere unless you have money to burn.

23rd March 2019, 11:22 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I am not a proponent of high shipping costs, but these auctions do not pack and ship themselves. They do not share the shipping cost as some eBay sellers do. They contract full service packing/shipping companies. This service is never cheap. Anyone who ever dealt with any full service shipper would not be surprised by the cost. It would be outrageous if they'd offer a free/discount shipping and then charge, but they state 3rd party packing/shipping on their websites, and one can always inquiry about the cost before the purchase.

24th March 2019, 12:49 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	If a business has, let us say, "creative" management, it might create a separate business entity to handle its packing and shipping, that way the packing and shipping would be done by a third party, one business entity handles sale, a different business entity handles packing & shipping, but both business entities have the same owner. It all comes back to the bottom line, and if that bottom line is more than we want to pay, well, we simply don't buy. So --- what happens? The private seller, like Detlef, like me, will compress costs, carry costs sometimes lose a little, sometimes make a little. We can do this because we do not rely on what we sell to make a living, we sell for other reasons, and maybe there is an element of hobby in the actual act of selling. But a regulated business that is compelled to act in a businesslike fashion? That is a different story. It is simply not possible to condemn any charge that a business may choose to apply unless we know the internal factors that generate that charge. From the point of view of a consumer we can appraise charges made by comparable business entities, and if the charges applied by the one we wish to do business with are not on a competitive level with other similar business entities we simply exercise our freedom of choice and avoid doing business with the entity that charges fees which in our opinion are too high. In your case Detlef, you have bought from a business that in your opinion charges too much. OK, maybe they do. But maybe it is because of their business model, maybe it is because of where they are located, maybe it is some other reason. But we cannot call them ripoff merchants until we know more about the reasons for their high charges. The easy way to handle this sort of situation is, in my opinion, simply not to do business with any business entity that charges noticeably more than similar business entities for comparable goods or services. The market place has a way or sorting out those who survive, and those who go under.

24th March 2019, 02:00 AM	#9
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 712	The auction houses clearly make far too much money. What other business takes 50% of an object’s value (say 25% from the seller and 25% from the buyer) as commission as a mere intermediary (never using his own capital to become the owner of the object)? Presumably they get credit from their suppliers and demand immediate cash only payment from clients which can be used to pay creditors. So the cash flow must be highly positive. And the earnings are achieved in a fairly small period of time. Unfortunately for auctioneers, online and etrade should push down commissions over time if only buyers can trust sellers. I think logistics service companies are very opportunistic. They will charge as much as they can, even as there are severe price pressures in the industry at large due to competition. Again, when people can book transport online charges will come down. Some actors use blockchain for tracking etc.

24th March 2019, 03:34 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Do auction houses make too much money? I understand "--- make too much money---" as "make too high a profit". In simple terms, a profit can never be too high, if any business entity can extract high returns from the market it services, that means it must be doing something right --- and if it is not doing something right, you can bet on it, it will go under. Then we have the case of Bonhams, elite, old UK firm. Not long ago I think they sold out to a private equity firm. Why did they sell? Why did a private equity firm buy? I'd be very interested in the reasons. But maybe we think that a business entity is charging too high a rate for what it provides? We could perhaps start by looking at share prices. Since ebay is an auction company, we might start with ebay. Then do a comparative analysis of ebay with houses like Sothebys & Christies. There's a nice exercise for somebody with time to spare:- do an analysis of the viability of auction houses as investment vehicles. Or forget all of that bean counter nonsense--- that I've spent most of my life on --- and simply say, "well I reckon they charge too much", and walk away. Which, as a both a buyer & seller, is what I did years ago. Then again, perhaps we might like to consider the integrity question. Anybody here ever been involved in the auction of real estate? Personally I want nothing at all to do with auctions.

28th March 2019, 08:57 AM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It's a thin line that separates simply bitching and actionable libel/slander/defamation of character suits these days; especially when specific venues or Sellers are mentioned and criticised . That's not what we are here for.

28th March 2019, 06:40 PM	#15
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Like our Irish friend I noticed that the small auctioneers are very fine. Sometimes cheaper than shipping companies. The big ones are the bad ones.

28th March 2019, 08:09 PM	#16
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Not to be unsympathetic, but I'd recommend checking in with the auction house before you bid for a shipping estimate in writing. Then you can, in good conscience, hold them to it or walk. I think you'll notice that it is quite difficult to find disparaging information about even the marginal auction houses online because they go to great effort to satisfy customers who can document that they were wronged.