A strongly curved Flank Officer's sword

Belgian1 · 21st December 2018, 06:55 PM

Hello from Belgium to all,
I am very passionate about English swords of the 18th and 19th centuries and for a long time I have been hoping to find a Flank Officer Sword with an strongly curved blade. These are my favorite and now it's done :-) and I can't resist to show you this ''military originality" with it's 73 cm curved blade ...
What is nice, is that it was mounted with a 1803 Pattern guard. The blade could be 18th?? The condition is not very good but it is its history that makes it very attractive.
Today I think they are uncommon or not very popular ... Sword for parade or for skirmishes and close combat in restricted areas?
In any case, this one seems to have valiantly fought....
What do you think about my new find? What can you teach me about it?

Kind regards from Belgium

PS: I am looking for a brass fitting of the same type for the top of the scabbard.

fernando · 21st December 2018, 07:53 PM

Oh, i love these exorbitantly curved blades.
If you use the Search button above under the word "parabolic", you may find discussions on these peculiarities.
There is one measurement you could take that will give a real idea of the blade curvature, a parameter which we call "flecha" (arrow) over here.

PS
If you look HERE

,

Belgian1 · 22nd December 2018, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh, i love these exorbitantly curved blades.
If you use the Search button above under the word "parabolic", you may find discussions on these peculiarities.
There is one measurement you could take that will give a real idea of the blade curvature, a parameter which we call "flecha" (arrow) over here.

PS
If you look HERE

,

The depth of the curve in the middle of the blade (between the two ends) is 11 cm. It's the most curved of my "intriguing" British swords.

fernando · 22nd December 2018, 09:32 PM

So the bow of your blade is just about the same as this War production sabre made in Cadiz for a light Cavalry "personal equipment"; as if this was the current 'extreme' curvature produced in factories. On the other hand, if i well recall, there are sources suggesting that another procedure was to acquire sabres with a current bow and then have them re-curved in a private smith. But this would then require new scabbards with a correspondent curve.

..

Will M · 22nd December 2018, 02:13 AM

Fernando that is a lovely blade. I believe it is all original as many 1803's had blades that differed in width, length and curvature. The false edge is interesting as it helps in a thrust but with such a curved blade it would be difficult .

Jim McDougall · 22nd December 2018, 03:25 AM

These really are intriguing swords, and the character of these often dramatically curved blades (parabolic +++!) is really puzzling. It does seem, as shown in previous discussions, that the actual purpose for these curious curves is still really undetermined.
As mentioned, the clipped point (or false edge) does serve in a thrust, but even with my limited understanding of physics, the curve of the blade would defy the direction of force needed to penetrate (I would think).

In these times of often flamboyant and dramatic military fashion, is it possible that such exaggeration was the case, officers wearing these wildly curved sabres to look 'exotic'? There were numerous other cases of such exaggeration, such as the scabbard worn low slung so it dragged and scraped as the dismounted trooper walked (why the element at the tip of the scabbard is called the 'drag'). Such 'effects' were to impress, perhaps in the fashion of a cowboy and the 'chink' of his spurs.

Just more thoughts on the possible reasons for these blades. While I know these various flank company curved swords were typically for officers, who were mounted...…..I have one which seems rather pedestrian for an officer....unless it is a 'fighting' example used by one.

Admittedly a lousy picture but taken years ago. This has a pipeback and sharp tip, which makes me think of thrusting. It is possible to 'give point' as often used by French cavalry from high tierce position, thrust downward, but as Will says.....difficult.

RobertGuy · 22nd December 2018, 09:33 AM

Never underestimate the influence of fashion on military thinking. The highly curved swords seem to have been made merely to impress the ladies. Flank officers usually held themselves above ordinary mortals and the chance to ape the flashy light cavalry when out riding or walking around town was simply irresistible. Add to that the unpopularity of the 1796 infantry sword and you have a strong movement for change. As fighting blades, they were not good. The official 1803 fared slightly better but had been produced to try and stop the use of exotically curved blades by young flank officers. While officers were usually mounted going to and from the battle they usually fought on foot. A couple of pics, standard 1803 and a more exotic flank officers sword.

Jim McDougall · 22nd December 2018, 05:56 PM

As Robert has well noted, military fashion in these times was profoundly observed as the officers of cavalry (and the elites such as flan companies et al) were very much the 'rock stars' of the time. I think one of the best illustrations of this swaggering character (in my opinion) is the Ridley Scott movie "The Duellists". It is based on a true story by Joseph Conrad, I think it was titled "The Duel", and about two French cavalry officers caught up in a specious affront who would duel whenever they were near each other.
The young cavalry officer (played by David Carradine) is told that all the ladies will swoon at his reputation, not to mention his swaggering character.
The colorful Napoleonic uniforms, hair styling, etc. really portray the hubris and fashion awareness.

Belgian1 · 22nd December 2018, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

Never underestimate the influence of fashion on military thinking. The highly curved swords seem to have been made merely to impress the ladies. Flank officers usually held themselves above ordinary mortals and the chance to ape the flashy light cavalry when out riding or walking around town was simply irresistible. Add to that the unpopularity of the 1796 infantry sword and you have a strong movement for change. As fighting blades, they were not good. The official 1803 fared slightly better but had been produced to try and stop the use of exotically curved blades by young flank officers. While officers were usually mounted going to and from the battle they usually fought on foot. A couple of pics, standard 1803 and a more exotic flank officers sword.

Many thanks RobertGuy for your pertinent comment. Yes indeed I had already hear about this explanation over a possible "fashion influence". But yet, this type of sword has been worn in battle and I have doubts about its sole function to influence the ladies. This would have been a dangerous suicidal fashion, a kind of "song of the swan ...". I think, rather, that this style of saber was intended to show his membership of an elite fighting troop and to be identified directly and thus get the laurels and merits of the unit with of course, the best intentions of the young ladies. But above all, it would be an object of "social" distinction, before the regulation, at the time when the officers of certain combat units could assert their whims with this type of fantasy. Like the swords of the officers of the "60th Foot" who had, by caprice, asked and obtained the autorization to have , an gilded brass D shape guard on their Pattern 1796 or the entier gilded brass handle and scabbard of the "Duke of Cumberland's Sharpshooters Rifle Unit". It also said, that this type of strongly curved blade are a variant of an ephemeral Pattern 1799....
But this topic deserves to be the subject of historical research because I believe that we are not the only ones to want to find a "official military" answer of historical source

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2018, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belgian1

Many thanks RobertGuy for your pertinent comment. Yes indeed I had already hear about this explanation over a possible "fashion influence". But yet, this type of sword has been worn in battle and I have doubts about its sole function to influence the ladies. This would have been a dangerous suicidal fashion, a kind of "song of the swan ...". I think, rather, that this style of saber was intended to show his membership of an elite fighting troop and to be identified directly and thus get the laurels and merits of the unit with of course, the best intentions of the young ladies. But above all, it would be an object of "social" distinction, before the regulation, at the time when the officers of certain combat units could assert their whims with this type of fantasy. Like the swords of the officers of the "60th Foot" who had, by caprice, asked and obtained the autorization to have , an gilded brass D shape guard on their Pattern 1796 or the entier gilded brass handle and scabbard of the "Duke of Cumberland's Sharpshooters Rifle Unit". It also said, that this type of strongly curved blade are a variant of an ephemeral Pattern 1799....
But this topic deserves to be the subject of historical research because I believe that we are not the only ones to want to find a "official military" answer of historical source

I agree 100% Belgian, like most unusual topics of this kind, more stringent research is definitely warranted. Officers were very well known for whimsical notions in their fashion in these times......even the storied 'Beau Brummel' (the quintessant fashion prince) was in a military unit. ...but not sure of his impact on the fashions.

It does seem that officers, who were of course typically from gentry and higher echelon station, indeed had great latitude in the swords they would commission. I am not sure if these elaborate or unusual types would have been worn into battle......it seems most officers had a selection of swords which included 'undress' and fighting examples which went on campaign.

The M1796 infantry officers dress sword, which had a hilt very much like that of a smallsword, bilobate guard, and was much hated by officers who took them on campaign in the Peninsula. The note on the M1803 intended to standardize the blades more reasonably for flank company officers is also interesting.

While a curved sabre is of course dynamically suited for slashing cuts off a mount or in movement.......it would not necessarily be so (I would think) dismounted and in melee or close combat. These incredibly curved blades would be totally awkward in such conditions it would seem.

Are we certain of these used in combat?
Interesting note on the 'ephemeral' 'pattern' (?) 1799 , I have not heard of this, can we know more?

A note regarding long and deeply curved blades and actual use, in America just before War of 1812....the Virginia Manufactory of Arms produced a number of very long and deeply curved blades. These were so cumbersome that troops rejected them. They were placed in storage and prior to Civil War these had blades shortened, rescabbarded for issue.

21st December 2018, 06:55 PM	#1
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	A strongly curved Flank Officer's sword Hello from Belgium to all, I am very passionate about English swords of the 18th and 19th centuries and for a long time I have been hoping to find a Flank Officer Sword with an strongly curved blade. These are my favorite and now it's done :-) and I can't resist to show you this ''military originality" with it's 73 cm curved blade ... What is nice, is that it was mounted with a 1803 Pattern guard. The blade could be 18th?? The condition is not very good but it is its history that makes it very attractive. Today I think they are uncommon or not very popular ... Sword for parade or for skirmishes and close combat in restricted areas? In any case, this one seems to have valiantly fought.... What do you think about my new find? What can you teach me about it? Kind regards from Belgium PS: I am looking for a brass fitting of the same type for the top of the scabbard. Attached Images

21st December 2018, 07:53 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh, i love these exorbitantly curved blades. If you use the Search button above under the word "parabolic", you may find discussions on these peculiarities. There is one measurement you could take that will give a real idea of the blade curvature, a parameter which we call "flecha" (arrow) over here. PS If you look HERE , Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 21st December 2018 at 08:17 PM.

22nd December 2018, 09:32 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So the bow of your blade is just about the same as this War production sabre made in Cadiz for a light Cavalry "personal equipment"; as if this was the current 'extreme' curvature produced in factories. On the other hand, if i well recall, there are sources suggesting that another procedure was to acquire sabres with a current bow and then have them re-curved in a private smith. But this would then require new scabbards with a correspondent curve. .. Attached Images

22nd December 2018, 03:25 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	These really are intriguing swords, and the character of these often dramatically curved blades (parabolic +++!) is really puzzling. It does seem, as shown in previous discussions, that the actual purpose for these curious curves is still really undetermined. As mentioned, the clipped point (or false edge) does serve in a thrust, but even with my limited understanding of physics, the curve of the blade would defy the direction of force needed to penetrate (I would think). In these times of often flamboyant and dramatic military fashion, is it possible that such exaggeration was the case, officers wearing these wildly curved sabres to look 'exotic'? There were numerous other cases of such exaggeration, such as the scabbard worn low slung so it dragged and scraped as the dismounted trooper walked (why the element at the tip of the scabbard is called the 'drag'). Such 'effects' were to impress, perhaps in the fashion of a cowboy and the 'chink' of his spurs. Just more thoughts on the possible reasons for these blades. While I know these various flank company curved swords were typically for officers, who were mounted...…..I have one which seems rather pedestrian for an officer....unless it is a 'fighting' example used by one. Admittedly a lousy picture but taken years ago. This has a pipeback and sharp tip, which makes me think of thrusting. It is possible to 'give point' as often used by French cavalry from high tierce position, thrust downward, but as Will says.....difficult. Attached Images

22nd December 2018, 09:33 AM	#7
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Never underestimate the influence of fashion on military thinking. The highly curved swords seem to have been made merely to impress the ladies. Flank officers usually held themselves above ordinary mortals and the chance to ape the flashy light cavalry when out riding or walking around town was simply irresistible. Add to that the unpopularity of the 1796 infantry sword and you have a strong movement for change. As fighting blades, they were not good. The official 1803 fared slightly better but had been produced to try and stop the use of exotically curved blades by young flank officers. While officers were usually mounted going to and from the battle they usually fought on foot. A couple of pics, standard 1803 and a more exotic flank officers sword. Attached Images

22nd December 2018, 02:13 AM	#5
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Fernando that is a lovely blade. I believe it is all original as many 1803's had blades that differed in width, length and curvature. The false edge is interesting as it helps in a thrust but with such a curved blade it would be difficult .

22nd December 2018, 05:56 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	As Robert has well noted, military fashion in these times was profoundly observed as the officers of cavalry (and the elites such as flan companies et al) were very much the 'rock stars' of the time. I think one of the best illustrations of this swaggering character (in my opinion) is the Ridley Scott movie "The Duellists". It is based on a true story by Joseph Conrad, I think it was titled "The Duel", and about two French cavalry officers caught up in a specious affront who would duel whenever they were near each other. The young cavalry officer (played by David Carradine) is told that all the ladies will swoon at his reputation, not to mention his swaggering character. The colorful Napoleonic uniforms, hair styling, etc. really portray the hubris and fashion awareness.