A composite mystery to me.

Gavin Nugent · 8th April 2017, 10:21 AM

I've had this Keris sitting around here for a while now, and for me, it is a mystery.

The hilt has some age to it, the silver cup, only partially remains.
The dress is modern, the blade a mystery to me.

Can any, more learned collectors, shed some light on to it?
With thanks

Gavin

kai · 10th April 2017, 12:27 AM

Hello Gavin,

I can't help much with this piece I'm afraid...

The gandar of the scabbard may be a more recent replacement; the reminder seems to have some age.

The blade looks weird - maybe ceremonial/talismanic? Certainly closer to the sajen category than being a "real" keris IMVHO...

I'm also sceptical about the selut - does not look like Madura to me...

Can you tell what is engraved into the blade? You can fill the lines with toothpaste and gently clean the surface after it dried - this should help to grasp the whole picture!

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 11th April 2017, 03:43 AM

Thanks for your thoughts Kai.

I like the toothpaste idea, The deep crevasses in the surfaces might hinder the process but I'll give it a go when time allows.

I too thought there might be some ceremonial aspect to this blade but its so bizarre and so left of field to my interests, I just don't know where to start with understanding it...I do love a good mystery.

Gavin

David · 11th April 2017, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

The blade looks weird - maybe ceremonial/talismanic? Certainly closer to the sajen category than being a "real" keris IMVHO...

Well, IMVHO there is no maybe or might about it...the intention of this blade seem to be talismanic without much doubt in my mind. I wouldn't exactly call this a keris sajen, but it falls towards that category for sure. However, i have never considered sajen to not be "real" keris.

I suspect that the feature on the back edge of the blade might represent a head-dressed Garuda. I assume the metal attached there is gold.
I agree with Kai that it would be great to get a clearer look at the designs incised into the blade had his toothpaste idea sounds like a great way to do it. I'd be very interested to get a better look at that.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2017, 01:10 AM

I've had a bit of a play in Photoshop with one of Gavin's images, I will not publish it because of his obvious desire that his images should be his personal property.

I have had reasonable success in improving the clarity of the image, and based upon what I believe I can now see, I am reasonably confident that the markings on the blade are not purely decorative, however if they are intended to be talismanic I feel that only the person who put them there might be the only person who would have understood their intent. This is not unusual with any talismanic object:- if only the owner understands the purpose of the talisman, power cannot be drained from that talisman.

Similarly with the thing on the back edge of the blade, I cannot relate this form to anything I have previously seen.

So, talismanic?

Possibly.

If not, then a change made to a pretty ugly keris in order to make it saleable. This is very, very common and has resulted in the presence of objects in major, well known and sometimes published, collections.

Gavin Nugent · 12th April 2017, 09:03 AM

Gents, thank you for your thoughts and input.

David, I too thought that "might" be Garuda, the same feeling I have about this Sumatran Kerambit sheath below. As for the eye, not yet tested but seems to have some content to it.

I seem to recall something similar seen in a Balinese funeral process, but alas my external hard drive is playing up...

Alan, if you feel the community can benefit from your photo shop work, please, by all means, feel free to drop it in here...I'm out of the loop here until after Easter.

Gavin

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2017, 02:20 PM

Sorry Gavin, I've already got rid of it, but all I did was a bit of light and contrast adjustment + curves + the unsharp mask. It did make it a little easier to see the entire picture.

Gavin Nugent · 25th June 2022, 02:29 PM

Alan,

Would/could this be a Keris Sombro? Or is this a catch phrase thrown around where these small talismanic keris are concerned?

With thanks

Gavin

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've had a bit of a play in Photoshop with one of Gavin's images, I will not publish it because of his obvious desire that his images should be his personal property.

I have had reasonable success in improving the clarity of the image, and based upon what I believe I can now see, I am reasonably confident that the markings on the blade are not purely decorative, however if they are intended to be talismanic I feel that only the person who put them there might be the only person who would have understood their intent. This is not unusual with any talismanic object:- if only the owner understands the purpose of the talisman, power cannot be drained from that talisman.

Similarly with the thing on the back edge of the blade, I cannot relate this form to anything I have previously seen.

So, talismanic?

Possibly.

If not, then a change made to a pretty ugly keris in order to make it saleable. This is very, very common and has resulted in the presence of objects in major, well known and sometimes published, collections.

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2022, 11:34 PM

No Gavin.

Here is a link to an old thread:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=sombro

Post 28 has some good examples of Sombros.

They are small,light, thin, gonjo iras, but the defining feature is the hole in the end of the pesi, the story is that after Empu Sombro ( a lady) had made a quantity of these little blades she would thread them onto a piece of twine and walk from place to place selling them, to remove from the twine after sale the eye that accommodated the thread was broken.

The probable reality is that these little keris were talismanic, the eye was used for suspension within a house, or around the neck, over time the eye eroded and broke open.

Skimming through previous posts it looks like we failed to adequately address the fittings:-

wrongko awak-awakan (gambar, sampir,top,main part) Madura udang-udangan, wrongko gandar a replacement, hilt Madura/East Jawa sandang walikat, selut probably North Coast Jawa.

8th April 2017, 10:21 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A composite mystery to me. I've had this Keris sitting around here for a while now, and for me, it is a mystery. The hilt has some age to it, the silver cup, only partially remains. The dress is modern, the blade a mystery to me. Can any, more learned collectors, shed some light on to it? With thanks Gavin Attached Images

12th April 2017, 09:03 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Gents, thank you for your thoughts and input. David, I too thought that "might" be Garuda, the same feeling I have about this Sumatran Kerambit sheath below. As for the eye, not yet tested but seems to have some content to it. I seem to recall something similar seen in a Balinese funeral process, but alas my external hard drive is playing up... Alan, if you feel the community can benefit from your photo shop work, please, by all means, feel free to drop it in here...I'm out of the loop here until after Easter. Gavin Attached Images

10th April 2017, 12:27 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Gavin, I can't help much with this piece I'm afraid... The gandar of the scabbard may be a more recent replacement; the reminder seems to have some age. The blade looks weird - maybe ceremonial/talismanic? Certainly closer to the sajen category than being a "real" keris IMVHO... I'm also sceptical about the selut - does not look like Madura to me... Can you tell what is engraved into the blade? You can fill the lines with toothpaste and gently clean the surface after it dried - this should help to grasp the whole picture! Regards, Kai

11th April 2017, 03:43 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks for your thoughts Kai. I like the toothpaste idea, The deep crevasses in the surfaces might hinder the process but I'll give it a go when time allows. I too thought there might be some ceremonial aspect to this blade but its so bizarre and so left of field to my interests, I just don't know where to start with understanding it...I do love a good mystery. Gavin

12th April 2017, 01:10 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I've had a bit of a play in Photoshop with one of Gavin's images, I will not publish it because of his obvious desire that his images should be his personal property. I have had reasonable success in improving the clarity of the image, and based upon what I believe I can now see, I am reasonably confident that the markings on the blade are not purely decorative, however if they are intended to be talismanic I feel that only the person who put them there might be the only person who would have understood their intent. This is not unusual with any talismanic object:- if only the owner understands the purpose of the talisman, power cannot be drained from that talisman. Similarly with the thing on the back edge of the blade, I cannot relate this form to anything I have previously seen. So, talismanic? Possibly. If not, then a change made to a pretty ugly keris in order to make it saleable. This is very, very common and has resulted in the presence of objects in major, well known and sometimes published, collections.

12th April 2017, 02:20 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Sorry Gavin, I've already got rid of it, but all I did was a bit of light and contrast adjustment + curves + the unsharp mask. It did make it a little easier to see the entire picture.

25th June 2022, 11:34 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	No Gavin. Here is a link to an old thread:- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=sombro Post 28 has some good examples of Sombros. They are small,light, thin, gonjo iras, but the defining feature is the hole in the end of the pesi, the story is that after Empu Sombro ( a lady) had made a quantity of these little blades she would thread them onto a piece of twine and walk from place to place selling them, to remove from the twine after sale the eye that accommodated the thread was broken. The probable reality is that these little keris were talismanic, the eye was used for suspension within a house, or around the neck, over time the eye eroded and broke open. Skimming through previous posts it looks like we failed to adequately address the fittings:- wrongko awak-awakan (gambar, sampir,top,main part) Madura udang-udangan, wrongko gandar a replacement, hilt Madura/East Jawa sandang walikat, selut probably North Coast Jawa.