Dating the 3 identifiable ages of the Moro Kris ?

Boswego · 29th January 2005, 07:36 PM

Generally,what centuries relate to the first two ages of the Moro Kris,ie: The Archaic and the Mid-Point (the 3rd seems obvious-19th-early 20th Cent.).Trying to get a rough date on my kris.Thanks for all the help.

LabanTayo · 29th January 2005, 08:32 PM

hello,
if you can post pics of your kris, it will give us an idea about the date.
thanks,

nechesh · 29th January 2005, 09:09 PM

Shelley, i think he is referring to this kris which he already posted:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=234
As to your question, well we've been arguing this for quite some time. The evidence to support the dating on the first period (i.e. just how old are the first Moro kris?) is debatable at best. If you do a search i am sure you will find these debates and my guess is they will play out pretty much the same in this thread if we dare to go there.

Federico · 29th January 2005, 09:29 PM

Well, as Nechesh has mentioned that is debatable. There definitely seem to be major groupings in kris style (well 4 if we differentiate between pre-American eg. pre 1900 kris and post American kris pre-1900-30), but what those exact ages are has been up to debate. In his book Moro Swords, Bob Cato has it split as Archaic (well he doesnt use this term) as being anything pre-18th century, mid-point between 1800-around mid 19th century, and the the latter half of the 19th century. Well, we have been debating how far back particularly the Archaic style truly goes. Is it limited to the 18th century or did it appear as early as the 15th century. Was it developed in reaction to European arms, which would then limit it around the earliest the 16th-17th centuries? Or was it an initial interpretation of the keris by local tribes, which could then push us down to the formation of the Sultanates and the introduction of greater Malay culture in the 15th century? Now of course if the archaic style is older than the 18th century, then is the mid-point style older as well? When exactly did they stop making the archaic style? Perhaps they first started popping up as early as the 15th century, but continued to be made until the 18th?

Anyways, the mid-point style is fairly marked at ending at around the mid-19th century. Of note is an early American expedition to the region prior to the 1850s, and later European landings in the area. At least for me, I am satisfied with the evidence I have seen/heard of. However, the older archaic style...well we start getting sketchy provinance. Would be real interesting if someone could do another museum survey. I know Bob Cato did a very extensive survey for his book Moro Swords, covering museums in the US, Europe, SE Asia, and S. America. However, so far his work is about the only work in the field that has such extensive research. At least until Cecil's book gets published.

Boswego · 30th January 2005, 12:45 AM

Frederico,Nechesh,Laban-Thanks for the help ! This is my first Keris (found at a Flea Mkt).Aesthetically to Me,these are certainly some of the most beautiful weapons ever created-I can see how You'd get hooked on collecting them.Each one's a unique work of art,they combine the spritual with a complete utilitarian purpose.Its like finding an artifact that combines the exoticness of Atlantis or Conan with great tribal intensity.

Rick · 30th January 2005, 12:52 AM

This site will surely interest you .

http://www.bakbakan.com/swishkb.html

Boswego · 29th January 2005, 09:22 PM

Frederico thought this piece looked like it was from the Mid Point in Moro Keris history.I've done a fair amount of surfing and I cant find a dated timeline that gives the approximate dates (ie: circa 15th-18th Cent) to define this period.I know theres probably some bleed-over from period to period (and expert debate of course),just looking for the currently most agreed on dating.
-Thanks

29th January 2005, 07:36 PM	#1
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Dating the 3 identifiable ages of the Moro Kris ? Generally,what centuries relate to the first two ages of the Moro Kris,ie: The Archaic and the Mid-Point (the 3rd seems obvious-19th-early 20th Cent.).Trying to get a rough date on my kris.Thanks for all the help.

29th January 2005, 08:32 PM	#2
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	hello, if you can post pics of your kris, it will give us an idea about the date. thanks,

29th January 2005, 09:09 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Shelley, i think he is referring to this kris which he already posted: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=234 As to your question, well we've been arguing this for quite some time. The evidence to support the dating on the first period (i.e. just how old are the first Moro kris?) is debatable at best. If you do a search i am sure you will find these debates and my guess is they will play out pretty much the same in this thread if we dare to go there.

29th January 2005, 09:29 PM	#4
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Well, as Nechesh has mentioned that is debatable. There definitely seem to be major groupings in kris style (well 4 if we differentiate between pre-American eg. pre 1900 kris and post American kris pre-1900-30), but what those exact ages are has been up to debate. In his book Moro Swords, Bob Cato has it split as Archaic (well he doesnt use this term) as being anything pre-18th century, mid-point between 1800-around mid 19th century, and the the latter half of the 19th century. Well, we have been debating how far back particularly the Archaic style truly goes. Is it limited to the 18th century or did it appear as early as the 15th century. Was it developed in reaction to European arms, which would then limit it around the earliest the 16th-17th centuries? Or was it an initial interpretation of the keris by local tribes, which could then push us down to the formation of the Sultanates and the introduction of greater Malay culture in the 15th century? Now of course if the archaic style is older than the 18th century, then is the mid-point style older as well? When exactly did they stop making the archaic style? Perhaps they first started popping up as early as the 15th century, but continued to be made until the 18th? Anyways, the mid-point style is fairly marked at ending at around the mid-19th century. Of note is an early American expedition to the region prior to the 1850s, and later European landings in the area. At least for me, I am satisfied with the evidence I have seen/heard of. However, the older archaic style...well we start getting sketchy provinance. Would be real interesting if someone could do another museum survey. I know Bob Cato did a very extensive survey for his book Moro Swords, covering museums in the US, Europe, SE Asia, and S. America. However, so far his work is about the only work in the field that has such extensive research. At least until Cecil's book gets published.

30th January 2005, 12:45 AM	#5
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Frederico,Nechesh,Laban-Thanks for the help ! This is my first Keris (found at a Flea Mkt).Aesthetically to Me,these are certainly some of the most beautiful weapons ever created-I can see how You'd get hooked on collecting them.Each one's a unique work of art,they combine the spritual with a complete utilitarian purpose.Its like finding an artifact that combines the exoticness of Atlantis or Conan with great tribal intensity.

30th January 2005, 12:52 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	This site will surely interest you . http://www.bakbakan.com/swishkb.html

29th January 2005, 09:22 PM	#7
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Frederico thought this piece looked like it was from the Mid Point in Moro Keris history.I've done a fair amount of surfing and I cant find a dated timeline that gives the approximate dates (ie: circa 15th-18th Cent) to define this period.I know theres probably some bleed-over from period to period (and expert debate of course),just looking for the currently most agreed on dating. -Thanks