A ‚Christian’ Yataghan – Translation help needed :-)

Tatyana Dianova · 26th May 2009, 03:05 PM

Here is a large and pretty heavy Yataghan from West Anatoly. It has deeply etched pattern welded blade, decorated with silver true inlay and 3D arrows. And it has a fish inlay which looks like a Christian symbol on the top of the handle bolster. It is interesting, what the inscriptions on the blade say. Maybe somebody (Dom :-)?) can help with the translation? I will appreciate any comments :-)

Tatyana Dianova · 26th May 2009, 03:06 PM

The long inscription (right part)

Tatyana Dianova · 26th May 2009, 03:07 PM

The long inscription (left part)

Tatyana Dianova · 26th May 2009, 03:08 PM

Other inscriptions:

Atlantia · 26th May 2009, 04:03 PM

Hi Tatyana

Its a very attractive sword! The decoration is unusual, and rather interesting. I love the circular patterns. Do you recognise any f the other symbols as Christian? I would have thought that in conjunction with the 'Ichthus' there would be other overt symbols such as the Chi-Rho?
Could the hilt symbol be part of a larger from that has been partly erased?
I've never seen the Christian Fish on a sword before.
I'll be watching the thread with interest to see if anyone can decipher the inscriptions!

Regards
Gene

Norman McCormick · 26th May 2009, 04:07 PM

Hi,
I think this one is a date, Islamic 1214 = 1799/1800. Will be interesting to see what the rest translates as, nice sword. The other one, Alpha?
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 26th May 2009, 08:32 PM

Interesting yataghan!
While awaiting the linguists interpretations of the inscriptions, the symbolism is always of interest to me.
We are of course all well aware of the fish symbolism in Christianity.
This blade is rich in geometric symbolism, and the raised devices on the blade seem to resemble geometric apotropaics somewhat, thinking again of the aghrab on Arabian scabbards, although the design here is not quite the same.

The fish was also symbolically a folk religion talisman in North Africa, from Tunis to the Sudan, and probably much wider, certainly in the Ottoman realm.
The concentric circles resemble ancient motifs in shamanic and folk religion symbolism with wide ranging interpretations, but often seen on rock art and other early artwork.

Naturally it is dangerous to assume whether symbolics in any material culture is applied as deliberate symbolism or whether simply adopted as space filling motif, but it is always interesting to consider the possibilities.

Battara · 27th May 2009, 12:40 AM

I have also seen this form as not a fish but used in Islamic art as a floral motif, ie. Moro okir.

Jim McDougall · 29th May 2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I have also seen this form as not a fish but used in Islamic art as a floral motif, ie. Moro okir.

Thank you Jose!!

All the best,
Jim

Dom · 27th May 2009, 01:22 AM

Hi my Friends ....

where did you got that sword could be Christian

when you'll discovered the owner name, sure he never got a baptem sacrement

more surely, been a good "Hadj" ... LOL

the date also, I am not formal, still yet the risk of error between 2 and 3
as I already explained

the owner name, the title (not an high ranked Gouvernemental employee), and the forma, are very turkish
translation; "Owner Saïd Hussein Effendi"

the long sentence it's again a poem glorifying swords in general and "Zulfikar" in particular (double blade sword)

nice stamp and clear sign for the "blacksmith"
Ali Ben Mohamed

by the way, ... your (!) fish, could looks also the "Nile key"

otherwise, beautiful yatagan

à +

Dom

Tatyana Dianova · 27th May 2009, 10:13 AM

I would like to thank everybody for the comments and especially Dom for his observations and translations!
Jim, Battara and Dom, I also had my doubts concerning the Christian meaning of the fish, that’s why I’ve written ‘Christian’ in the title. But it is simply the first thought that crosses one’s mind when seeing it. And I thought that maybe the Yataghan belonged to a person, who was a hidden Christian…
Dom, do you think that this level of quality still existed on the turn of 20th century? VERY similar blades one may see in Astvazaturian’s book on Turkish Arms, page 153, and all of them date to the very limited period of 1800-1810…

Dom · 27th May 2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

...snip...And I thought that maybe the Yataghan belonged to a person, who was a hidden Christian…
Dom, do you think that this level of quality still existed on the turn of 20th century? VERY similar blades one may see in Astvazaturian’s book on Turkish Arms, page 153, and all of them date to the very limited period of 1800-1810…

Hi Tatyana
I'm not an expert, just an "amateur"

my comments involve ... only myself ... without any warranty

my capacities, are, just to have opportunity of a "charming spouse" fully fluent in arabic, and Islamic culture,
and be myself fascinated for Middle-East and more particularly his weapons and armors

you was expressing the possibility of "an hidden Christian" !!!
when you will know that according with Islam the Muslim relapse is convicted by death (beheaded ..)

only a senseless could take a major risk to show a Christian sign

concerning the date, until 1923 date of disbanded of Othman Empire and the end of XX century,
it was very fanshionnable to be infatuated by "antic's", see Viollet-le-Duc period in France, plenty copies of "Orientalism",
Napoleon the Third ans his wife Eugénie very popular in Egypt, where have been exported the style "N III", who is a "L. XIV" copy ....

even we have Qajar Art ended around 1924, and that Persian production looks oldest than his period, with; armors, helmets, brassards, axes, hammers, mailshirt, etc.
not easy to know with certitude where is the truth, may be there are ... several truthes ...

best regards

à +

Dom

26th May 2009, 03:05 PM	#1
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	A ‚Christian’ Yataghan – Translation help needed :-) Here is a large and pretty heavy Yataghan from West Anatoly. It has deeply etched pattern welded blade, decorated with silver true inlay and 3D arrows. And it has a fish inlay which looks like a Christian symbol on the top of the handle bolster. It is interesting, what the inscriptions on the blade say. Maybe somebody (Dom :-)?) can help with the translation? I will appreciate any comments :-) Attached Images

26th May 2009, 03:06 PM	#2
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	The long inscription (right part) Attached Images

26th May 2009, 03:07 PM	#3
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	The long inscription (left part) Attached Images

26th May 2009, 03:08 PM	#4
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Other inscriptions: Attached Images

26th May 2009, 04:07 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, I think this one is a date, Islamic 1214 = 1799/1800. Will be interesting to see what the rest translates as, nice sword. The other one, Alpha? Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 26th May 2009 at 04:35 PM.

26th May 2009, 04:03 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Tatyana Its a very attractive sword! The decoration is unusual, and rather interesting. I love the circular patterns. Do you recognise any f the other symbols as Christian? I would have thought that in conjunction with the 'Ichthus' there would be other overt symbols such as the Chi-Rho? Could the hilt symbol be part of a larger from that has been partly erased? I've never seen the Christian Fish on a sword before. I'll be watching the thread with interest to see if anyone can decipher the inscriptions! Regards Gene

26th May 2009, 08:32 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Interesting yataghan! While awaiting the linguists interpretations of the inscriptions, the symbolism is always of interest to me. We are of course all well aware of the fish symbolism in Christianity. This blade is rich in geometric symbolism, and the raised devices on the blade seem to resemble geometric apotropaics somewhat, thinking again of the aghrab on Arabian scabbards, although the design here is not quite the same. The fish was also symbolically a folk religion talisman in North Africa, from Tunis to the Sudan, and probably much wider, certainly in the Ottoman realm. The concentric circles resemble ancient motifs in shamanic and folk religion symbolism with wide ranging interpretations, but often seen on rock art and other early artwork. Naturally it is dangerous to assume whether symbolics in any material culture is applied as deliberate symbolism or whether simply adopted as space filling motif, but it is always interesting to consider the possibilities.

27th May 2009, 12:40 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I have also seen this form as not a fish but used in Islamic art as a floral motif, ie. Moro okir.

27th May 2009, 01:22 AM	#10
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi my Friends .... where did you got that sword could be Christian when you'll discovered the owner name, sure he never got a baptem sacrement more surely, been a good "Hadj" ... LOL the date also, I am not formal, still yet the risk of error between 2 and 3 as I already explained the owner name, the title (not an high ranked Gouvernemental employee), and the forma, are very turkish translation; "Owner Saïd Hussein Effendi" the long sentence it's again a poem glorifying swords in general and "Zulfikar" in particular (double blade sword) nice stamp and clear sign for the "blacksmith" Ali Ben Mohamed by the way, ... your (!) fish, could looks also the "Nile key" otherwise, beautiful yatagan à + Dom Attached Images

27th May 2009, 10:13 AM	#11
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	I would like to thank everybody for the comments and especially Dom for his observations and translations! Jim, Battara and Dom, I also had my doubts concerning the Christian meaning of the fish, that’s why I’ve written ‘Christian’ in the title. But it is simply the first thought that crosses one’s mind when seeing it. And I thought that maybe the Yataghan belonged to a person, who was a hidden Christian… Dom, do you think that this level of quality still existed on the turn of 20th century? VERY similar blades one may see in Astvazaturian’s book on Turkish Arms, page 153, and all of them date to the very limited period of 1800-1810…