Sword for ID and comment

SwordLover79 · 30th November 2023, 05:26 PM

Gentlemen: here is the last sword of the group that I traded for several weeks ago that included a couple of Scottish Baskethllt swords. The double fullered slightly curved blade is 29.5 inches in length and is 1 1/4 inches wide. No make marks other than an eyelash? on one side of the blade. 5 1/2 inch X 5 1/2 inch hilt no counting the recurved quillons. 3 3/4 inch wire wrapped hilt with 2 turkheads. Pierced hand guard. Comfortable thumb ring. I'm thinking mid/late 17th Century German or Dutch? Cavalry?

Jim McDougall · 30th November 2023, 07:04 PM

Well, once again, this 'trade' IMO is almost 'historic'! I cannot believe the swords (basket hilts) you acquired along with this....a historic sword known as a 'dusagge', a typically North European sabre/hanger in use 16th into 17th c.

What is unique on this one, the hilt of course has strong resemblance to the Scottish basket hilt, note the shield and heart shaped piercings. These have been classified by Victorian antiquarians as 'Sinclair sabers' for an obscure 'battle' (actually a massacre) of Scottish mercenary forces who were headed for Sweden during the Kalmar War (1611-1613) between Denmark/Norway vs. Sweden.

While King James VI of Scotland was actually for Norway/Denmark and the Scots, well known for their proclivity as mercenaries, had been approached by King Karl IX of Sweden for 1500 men to help. He approached Andrew Ramsay, and George Sinclair, who was nephew of Earl of Caithness and key figure of the clan Sinclair.

When King James discovered this, of course he forbade any further support etc and in fact sought the arrest of Ramsay.

On 26 August 1612, in the pass of Kringen in Norway, the force of Scottish mercenaries were literally slaughtered by Norwegian forces, who were apparently enraged by previous Scottish groups were marauded their communities making the trek through these regions.

It seems the term 'Sinclair saber' became a kind of commemorative honorific in honor of George Sinclair, who was killed in this event in Norway, because of his prominent standing in his clan, Ramsay survived.

Because of the similarity of these hilts, it has often been suggested that these were in fact the Genesis of the British basket hilt, however that specific of course cannot be held as the single influence or origin.

The dentated arc marking on the blade is the ubiquitous 'sickle mark' which is generally held to have Genoan origins, whether as a guild mark, or general quality or talismanic device is unclear. However this mark became widely used later in Solingen as well as some Styrian cities, often coupled with other marks, wording and devices.
While these 'dusagges' were widely used in Northern Europe, they are also highly associated with Southern Germany.

AHorsa · 1st December 2023, 07:35 AM

Congrats to that beautiful Dussägge! I am dreaming of owning such a sword one day. I would say it is South German, Styrian or Swiss. But as Jim mentioned, they were also famous in Northern Europe. My observation from auction descriptions etc is, that those with a rectangular pommel and the style like yours are mostly attributed to the above mentioned southern region, while those attributed to northern countries are a bit different in style. E.g.: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22245

Triarii · 1st December 2023, 08:42 AM

That's a great sword in very good condition. I've been looking into them for a while to get a repro made (by a Czech) for a 1620s event on the continent next year, and excluding the heart and having a rounder pommel, its pretty much the same style.

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2023, 12:04 PM

Ahorsa, thank you for the note on the squared pommel, and its connection to the southern Germany regions. That helps define some of the regional variation in these.

30th November 2023, 05:26 PM	#1
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Sword for ID and comment Gentlemen: here is the last sword of the group that I traded for several weeks ago that included a couple of Scottish Baskethllt swords. The double fullered slightly curved blade is 29.5 inches in length and is 1 1/4 inches wide. No make marks other than an eyelash? on one side of the blade. 5 1/2 inch X 5 1/2 inch hilt no counting the recurved quillons. 3 3/4 inch wire wrapped hilt with 2 turkheads. Pierced hand guard. Comfortable thumb ring. I'm thinking mid/late 17th Century German or Dutch? Cavalry? Attached Images

30th November 2023, 07:04 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Well, once again, this 'trade' IMO is almost 'historic'! I cannot believe the swords (basket hilts) you acquired along with this....a historic sword known as a 'dusagge', a typically North European sabre/hanger in use 16th into 17th c. What is unique on this one, the hilt of course has strong resemblance to the Scottish basket hilt, note the shield and heart shaped piercings. These have been classified by Victorian antiquarians as 'Sinclair sabers' for an obscure 'battle' (actually a massacre) of Scottish mercenary forces who were headed for Sweden during the Kalmar War (1611-1613) between Denmark/Norway vs. Sweden. While King James VI of Scotland was actually for Norway/Denmark and the Scots, well known for their proclivity as mercenaries, had been approached by King Karl IX of Sweden for 1500 men to help. He approached Andrew Ramsay, and George Sinclair, who was nephew of Earl of Caithness and key figure of the clan Sinclair. When King James discovered this, of course he forbade any further support etc and in fact sought the arrest of Ramsay. On 26 August 1612, in the pass of Kringen in Norway, the force of Scottish mercenaries were literally slaughtered by Norwegian forces, who were apparently enraged by previous Scottish groups were marauded their communities making the trek through these regions. It seems the term 'Sinclair saber' became a kind of commemorative honorific in honor of George Sinclair, who was killed in this event in Norway, because of his prominent standing in his clan, Ramsay survived. Because of the similarity of these hilts, it has often been suggested that these were in fact the Genesis of the British basket hilt, however that specific of course cannot be held as the single influence or origin. The dentated arc marking on the blade is the ubiquitous 'sickle mark' which is generally held to have Genoan origins, whether as a guild mark, or general quality or talismanic device is unclear. However this mark became widely used later in Solingen as well as some Styrian cities, often coupled with other marks, wording and devices. While these 'dusagges' were widely used in Northern Europe, they are also highly associated with Southern Germany. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th November 2023 at 07:20 PM.

1st December 2023, 07:35 AM	#3
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Congrats to that beautiful Dussägge! I am dreaming of owning such a sword one day. I would say it is South German, Styrian or Swiss. But as Jim mentioned, they were also famous in Northern Europe. My observation from auction descriptions etc is, that those with a rectangular pommel and the style like yours are mostly attributed to the above mentioned southern region, while those attributed to northern countries are a bit different in style. E.g.: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22245

1st December 2023, 08:42 AM	#4
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 113	That's a great sword in very good condition. I've been looking into them for a while to get a repro made (by a Czech) for a 1620s event on the continent next year, and excluding the heart and having a rounder pommel, its pretty much the same style.

1st December 2023, 12:04 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Ahorsa, thank you for the note on the squared pommel, and its connection to the southern Germany regions. That helps define some of the regional variation in these.