Help wanted Identification of Katars

geneacom · 7th September 2005, 11:56 PM

I am doing some research for my brother, who has no computer.
He is collecting katars for more than 20 years.
We like to find out the meaning of the different inscriptions on his katars.

Thanks in advance
Rob van Willigen,
Amsterdam, the Netherlands

ariel · 8th September 2005, 02:08 AM

As far as I know, this technical manner of inscriptions usually belongs to Rajastan.
Tell your brother that he owes me a fee for this remarkably informative comment: posting pics of the katars for all of us to see!

Battara · 8th September 2005, 05:28 AM

Most of those inscriptions are arsenal marks?

geneacom · 8th September 2005, 01:51 PM

Rajastan is a start, now what is the translation?
Although I still don't know what the translation of the inscriptions is, I will ask my brother to make pictures of the katars with inscription.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th September 2005, 02:10 PM

Like Battara writes, most of the markings, if not all, are arsenal markings. Some is no doubt text, not yet translated as far as I know, and other of the markings are numbers. Markings like that were used at the armoury at Bikaner, about 350 km west south west of Delhi, so Rajasthan is also correct.
Pictures would be apreciated

.

geneacom · 8th September 2005, 07:33 PM

Since my brother only has made some detail photos of the to publish, I will show them here.
I will try to create a opportunity to make digital pictures

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2005, 09:33 PM

Yes rather like carpenters and other skilled persons marks from many trades that mean nothing to those not involved. Tim

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2005, 06:23 AM

Hi Rick,
Thanks for the call!!!

I cant really add a lot to what Jens has beautifully explained concerning arsenal and armoury markings, but we have tried to accomplish gathering data on them before, unfortunately there really is very little data.

The Bikaner armoury, which is being discussed here, seems to have the most distinctive and numerous items, characterized by these punch dot script inscriptions. Some other Mughal items seem to have inscriptions that may be arsenal markings with dates or numerics, but these are not catalogued or otherwise collected.

Robert Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual" p.30) describes the Wodeyar Armoury in Mysore, where Krishnaraja Wodeyar III (1799-1868) ordered an inventory and pieces numbered and inscribed in 'kannada' script, naming the object and noting his title, 'Srikishna'.

Hopefully those out there with Indian weapons that have distinct markings might post them here!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 11th September 2005, 11:01 AM

Hi Rick,

It is an interesting double marking you have on your tulwar, it is seldom to see double markings on weapons. It could be an owner’s name, and an armoury mark added later, or it could be two different armoury markings – but this is only speculation so far.

Hi Jim,

Your quotation of Elgood is very good, as it is very seldom to find a quotation like that.
One thing I forgot to mention earlier is, that besides a number, the text can give the name of the owner of the armoury or the name of the armoury itself, but in most cases it is likely that the text has been abbreviated, which makes it very difficult if not impossible to be sure from which armoury the weapons came, as we now only know of some of the armouries – armouries closed for many years are long forgotten, although we may find weapons marked in one of these places. We must also remember that many different languages were/are spoken in India, and to be able to read the text, you will have to know the language it is written in.

geneacom · 11th September 2005, 08:22 PM

hello everyone,
I made new digital pictures of my brothers' katars and some extra ones.
One of the extra is a very large katar and the other one is a very old one, I think.
Right now I am preparing the pictures for publishing here.
So keep watching ...

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2005, 09:52 PM

Hi Jens,
You're right, it is remarkably difficult to try to read or decipher armoury or arsenal markings because of the varying dialects and alphabetics. Even more confounding is the fact that such markings are typically the result of often reluctant bureaucratic tediom, inventorying. I cannot think of anyone who ever looked forward to 'inventory'! Thus the result of diminishing accuracy and omissions etc. The abbreviations and numbers can only have made sense to those directly involved in that particular armory and period. There was no standardization or system employed outside that armory and by others.

I recall some time ago trying to discover the meaning of such a marking on a Chinese sabre, which was apparantly inscribed in Manchu. Hoping for some meaningful, telling mark I pursued having it translated, not easily done as this is apparantly elusive these days in Chinese linguistics. When finally it was done all that could be determined was a vague interpretation of 'tempered steel' or 'good steel' or something of that form.

Even European military weapons are maddening in trying to discover the significance of key placed little letters and numbers and symbols in all manner of places on weapons. With these one is always hoping to find regimental attribution, but with such markings there is the one constant...inconsistancy!

Looking forward to seeing these next photos Geneacom!!!

All the best,
Jim

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 04:51 PM

The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three,

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 04:58 PM

The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three,

Inventory number,maybe the iron worker had a number,Any ones guess?

Most interesting the symbol before the 3 numbers 19b,26a,27a I believe that first symbol found before the 3 numbers can be found on all Bikaner weapons I just don't know what the first symbol means.
19b-225
20a-407
26a-573
27a-217
12a-324 this mark made during or after construction

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 05:04 PM

Post number 31 shows the unknown symbol

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2015, 05:05 PM

The dot marks are likely to be inventory markings, but the katar shown in post 26 is from Bundi, although it is marked with the Bikaner dot markings.
Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2015, 06:17 PM

Edward F.
Which if the symbols in post 31 is unknown?

Although many weapons have been marked with the dot marking from Bikaner, they may not all come from Bikaner.
When a castle had been taken, and after a battle as well, the weapons of the looser would have been transported somewhere else - like Anup Singh did, to his homeland Bikaner, after the fall of Adoni. This would avoid that the same weapons were used twice against the same army.

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 07:48 PM

Jens
This is the first symbol that is unknow but appears on most if not all dotted markings

The symbol is followed by three numbers

Edward F · 11th January 2015, 07:58 PM

Post 31 they are all the same symbol (lower left symbol is odd ) as you know this dotted marking is small and to create a letter or numbers with dots on metal you will most likely not get a consistant letter.

7th September 2005, 11:56 PM	#1
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	Help wanted Identification of Katars I am doing some research for my brother, who has no computer. He is collecting katars for more than 20 years. We like to find out the meaning of the different inscriptions on his katars. Thanks in advance Rob van Willigen, Amsterdam, the Netherlands Attached Images Last edited by geneacom; 8th September 2005 at 07:47 PM.

8th September 2005, 01:51 PM	#4
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	Re: Help wanted Identification of Katars Rajastan is a start, now what is the translation? Although I still don't know what the translation of the inscriptions is, I will ask my brother to make pictures of the katars with inscription.

8th September 2005, 02:10 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Like Battara writes, most of the markings, if not all, are arsenal markings. Some is no doubt text, not yet translated as far as I know, and other of the markings are numbers. Markings like that were used at the armoury at Bikaner, about 350 km west south west of Delhi, so Rajasthan is also correct. Pictures would be apreciated. Attached Images

8th September 2005, 07:33 PM	#6
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	Since my brother only has made some detail photos of the to publish, I will show them here. I will try to create a opportunity to make digital pictures Attached Images

11th September 2005, 08:22 PM	#10
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	new pictures of Katars hello everyone, I made new digital pictures of my brothers' katars and some extra ones. One of the extra is a very large katar and the other one is a very old one, I think. Right now I am preparing the pictures for publishing here. So keep watching ...

8th September 2005, 02:08 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As far as I know, this technical manner of inscriptions usually belongs to Rajastan. Tell your brother that he owes me a fee for this remarkably informative comment: posting pics of the katars for all of us to see!

8th September 2005, 05:28 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Most of those inscriptions are arsenal marks?

9th September 2005, 09:33 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Yes rather like carpenters and other skilled persons marks from many trades that mean nothing to those not involved. Tim

11th September 2005, 06:23 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hi Rick, Thanks for the call!!! I cant really add a lot to what Jens has beautifully explained concerning arsenal and armoury markings, but we have tried to accomplish gathering data on them before, unfortunately there really is very little data. The Bikaner armoury, which is being discussed here, seems to have the most distinctive and numerous items, characterized by these punch dot script inscriptions. Some other Mughal items seem to have inscriptions that may be arsenal markings with dates or numerics, but these are not catalogued or otherwise collected. Robert Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual" p.30) describes the Wodeyar Armoury in Mysore, where Krishnaraja Wodeyar III (1799-1868) ordered an inventory and pieces numbered and inscribed in 'kannada' script, naming the object and noting his title, 'Srikishna'. Hopefully those out there with Indian weapons that have distinct markings might post them here!! All the best, Jim

11th September 2005, 11:01 AM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, It is an interesting double marking you have on your tulwar, it is seldom to see double markings on weapons. It could be an owner’s name, and an armoury mark added later, or it could be two different armoury markings – but this is only speculation so far. Hi Jim, Your quotation of Elgood is very good, as it is very seldom to find a quotation like that. One thing I forgot to mention earlier is, that besides a number, the text can give the name of the owner of the armoury or the name of the armoury itself, but in most cases it is likely that the text has been abbreviated, which makes it very difficult if not impossible to be sure from which armoury the weapons came, as we now only know of some of the armouries – armouries closed for many years are long forgotten, although we may find weapons marked in one of these places. We must also remember that many different languages were/are spoken in India, and to be able to read the text, you will have to know the language it is written in.

11th September 2005, 09:52 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hi Jens, You're right, it is remarkably difficult to try to read or decipher armoury or arsenal markings because of the varying dialects and alphabetics. Even more confounding is the fact that such markings are typically the result of often reluctant bureaucratic tediom, inventorying. I cannot think of anyone who ever looked forward to 'inventory'! Thus the result of diminishing accuracy and omissions etc. The abbreviations and numbers can only have made sense to those directly involved in that particular armory and period. There was no standardization or system employed outside that armory and by others. I recall some time ago trying to discover the meaning of such a marking on a Chinese sabre, which was apparantly inscribed in Manchu. Hoping for some meaningful, telling mark I pursued having it translated, not easily done as this is apparantly elusive these days in Chinese linguistics. When finally it was done all that could be determined was a vague interpretation of 'tempered steel' or 'good steel' or something of that form. Even European military weapons are maddening in trying to discover the significance of key placed little letters and numbers and symbols in all manner of places on weapons. With these one is always hoping to find regimental attribution, but with such markings there is the one constant...inconsistancy! Looking forward to seeing these next photos Geneacom!!! All the best, Jim

11th January 2015, 04:51 PM	#12
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	bikaner markings The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three,

11th January 2015, 04:58 PM	#13
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	bikaner markings The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three, Inventory number,maybe the iron worker had a number,Any ones guess? Most interesting the symbol before the 3 numbers 19b,26a,27a I believe that first symbol found before the 3 numbers can be found on all Bikaner weapons I just don't know what the first symbol means. 19b-225 20a-407 26a-573 27a-217 12a-324 this mark made during or after construction

11th January 2015, 05:04 PM	#14
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	Post number 31 shows the unknown symbol

11th January 2015, 05:05 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The dot marks are likely to be inventory markings, but the katar shown in post 26 is from Bundi, although it is marked with the Bikaner dot markings. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 11th January 2015 at 06:17 PM.

11th January 2015, 06:17 PM	#16
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Edward F. Which if the symbols in post 31 is unknown? Although many weapons have been marked with the dot marking from Bikaner, they may not all come from Bikaner. When a castle had been taken, and after a battle as well, the weapons of the looser would have been transported somewhere else - like Anup Singh did, to his homeland Bikaner, after the fall of Adoni. This would avoid that the same weapons were used twice against the same army.

11th January 2015, 07:48 PM	#17
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	first symbol Jens This is the first symbol that is unknow but appears on most if not all dotted markings The symbol is followed by three numbers Attached Images

11th January 2015, 07:58 PM	#18
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	symbol post 31 Post 31 they are all the same symbol (lower left symbol is odd ) as you know this dotted marking is small and to create a letter or numbers with dots on metal you will most likely not get a consistant letter.