Lionhilt Broadsword 17th Century?

AHorsa · 1st May 2014, 04:57 PM

Hello Together,

Some month ago I got this interesting sword. It was covered by a thick patina (see first picture) which was easy to remove. Surprisingly the condition under the patina was quite good. It is 90cm long, the blade is 77cm. The Guard is cutted from iron, no iron casting. There was a thumb-ring on the shell-guard, removed in the old times and the blade is signed with the "passauer Wolf" and the "magical number" 1518. I found a similar piece (converning the lion-guard) at Hermann-Historica, Auction 62/63 -> a selection of collectibles -> Hunting Hangers Lot Nr. 2330c http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_...ion-62-63.html

I got three different opinions on this piece:
- "maybe historism (19th cent.) while using a blade of the 17th."
- "Officers Felddegen, around 1660, the guard in the style of Gottfried Leygebe"
- "Guard around 1580, Northitalian, the blade marriaged with the guard around 1600"

My opinion: Due to searching a lot of catalogues etc. I think the second opinion (around 1660) is the most likely one. But I couldn´t find an identical or nearly identical piece. In my eyes evidence against historism is the removed thumb-ring and the deep nick/cut on one of the stirrups (sse picture), which seems to originate from another edge weapon, also as this potential hit bended the stirrup out of shape (see last pic).

I would be very interested in your opinion about this peace. Maybe you can also help me to find out about the geographical context of the sword.

Thanks and best regards,
Andi

M ELEY · 2nd May 2014, 11:54 AM

I'm a novice here, but I just wanted to say that your sword is magnificent! I love this style of guard. I would wager the second opinion as well, but perhaps early 17th century, Dutch colonial, perhaps made in Indonesia or Shri Lanka (colonial lions similar to those VOC swords of the period?). I see why it could be 1660's, as the shell is curved vs. flat outcropping seen on early hangers. Also, the timeline would fit with the early Anglo-Dutch Wars, when similar pieces were being produced-

fernando · 2nd May 2014, 01:29 PM

Hi Andi, welcome to the forum

Say, aren't you skipping over a vital detail, which is that mark on the ricasso ?
Once identified, it will be more than half way to find the provenance of your sword and potentialy remove the historism possibility.
Can you take a better picture of this one ?

.

AHorsa · 2nd May 2014, 02:32 PM

Hi at all and thanks for your replies. Fernando you are right, I forgot to mention the mark. Here is a better picture of it. I studied some books about Solingen-Marks but couldn´t find it.

Best regards,
Andi

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2014, 05:31 PM

Mark, as shown with that astute assessment, you are far from 'novice'!!!!
I agree on the period, which I think is around mid 17th perhaps into the first half. Excellent observation on the Dutch associations, and the style of the hilt does recall some of the elaborately carved themes on these colonial hilts favored through VOC trade in the East Indies.
However, I am inclined to see this as among the English 'riding swords' of this period, and the sometimes almost fanciful use of heraldic lions in a themed hilt corresponds in degree to many of these kinds of hilts with the 'green man' and of the type. In many cases this motif is in accord with some seen even on the so called 'mortuary' hilts with facemask etc. in the style at least.

The one thing which would set this attribution outside England would be the thumb ring, or former presence of it, as this is very much a Continental feature. Here I would point out the profound connections between England and the Netherlands in these times, in fact Great Britain became essentially a Dutch dominion under William of Orange by the end of the century . The influences shared in weaponry between Dutch and English styles is seen well into the 18th century, especially in smallswords, which actually seem to have evolved from such riding swords amalgamated with the rapier.

The shellguard seems much in accord with these riding swords, and Mark's note on the curvature of same is well placed.

To me the patination looks good, and concurs with swords of this age. The blade is interesting, and I have not found information on these rather unusual lenticular blades, but know they were used of course. The stamp at the forte seems floral, but I cant make it out. In style it seems like it could be one of the town stamps used by VOC kamers (the seven chambers in Netherlands) but have not yet found more .

As well noted by Andi, the 1518 is indeed a magic number rather than date, and the running wolf along with it indicates of course pretty much a standard pairing for Solingen products of these times.
Here I would note that I truly appreciate the preliminary research, well detailed description and good photos provided by Andi in this thread.
Nicely done, and thank you Andi!

In conclusion, I do not think this is in any way a historism piece, but as always I would defer to opinions of Jasper or Michael.

All best regards,
Jim

PS, the suggestion to the work of Gottfried Leygebe seems interesting.
There appears to be a pertinent article by Ada Bruhn,
"Der Schwertfeger Gottfried Leygebe" in Vol I of 'Tojhusmuseets Skrifter'
(1945) but I could not access it .

fernando · 3rd May 2014, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

...I studied some books about Solingen-Marks but couldn´t find it. ...

Having a look at the inunmerous marks in the Wallace Colection catalogue (1962) i don't find it either ... whatever is correct position.

.

M ELEY · 4th May 2014, 01:58 AM

I did forget to thank Andi for psoting this fascinating sword! I love pieces from this time period, particularly the early hanger types.

Thank you, Jim, for the complement! It means much coming from one of the founding fathers of the Forum! (Not trying to show your age or anything-

). I had forgotten about the riding swords and their somewhat whimsical dsigns. Very well placed and definitely a good possibility. I do have to read up on those amazing sword types from that era.

Fernando, you were very astute to point out the stamp. Even I had blundered past it when this thread was originally posted. Is there any possibility that flower could be a tulip? (Dutch tip of the hat again. Sorry, can't get past those lions

).

Jim pointed out the lentricular blade pattern. Was this type used on Brit swords? Dutch? German? Also, the iron hilt being chizeled/cut and not forged. Does this point to an attribution? Jim, you are right, we need Jasper or Michael on this one! Or perhaps someone else? Where are the forumites hiding-

Victrix · 25th November 2018, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Hello Together,

Some month ago I got this interesting sword. It was covered by a thick patina (see first picture) which was easy to remove. Surprisingly the condition under the patina was quite good. It is 90cm long, the blade is 77cm. The Guard is cutted from iron, no iron casting. There was a thumb-ring on the shell-guard, removed in the old times and the blade is signed with the "passauer Wolf" and the "magical number" 1518. I found a similar piece (converning the lion-guard) at Hermann-Historica, Auction 62/63 -> a selection of collectibles -> Hunting Hangers Lot Nr. 2330c http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_...ion-62-63.html

I got three different opinions on this piece:
- "maybe historism (19th cent.) while using a blade of the 17th."
- "Officers Felddegen, around 1660, the guard in the style of Gottfried Leygebe"
- "Guard around 1580, Northitalian, the blade marriaged with the guard around 1600"

My opinion: Due to searching a lot of catalogues etc. I think the second opinion (around 1660) is the most likely one. But I couldn´t find an identical or nearly identical piece. In my eyes evidence against historism is the removed thumb-ring and the deep nick/cut on one of the stirrups (sse picture), which seems to originate from another edge weapon, also as this potential hit bended the stirrup out of shape (see last pic).

I would be very interested in your opinion about this peace. Maybe you can also help me to find out about the geographical context of the sword.

Thanks and best regards,
Andi

Fantastic sword, congratulations! Can you share with us how you managed to get rid of all that rust/patina to reveal such beautiful detail?

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2018, 05:16 PM

Great thread from 'the old days'!!!
Mark, perfectly illustrates what an astute collector you are, and how much we have learned with the things you have shared here over so many years.
Outstanding Cap'n!!!

M ELEY · 26th November 2018, 05:59 AM

Thanks, Cap'n Jim! Mine pales in comparison to the original starter of this thread, but it is interesting to note that the hilt on my more primitive piece is made from tropical carved orangy-colored wood. These Dutch lion hangers and swords all date to the 1650-1700 period, right during the time of the Anglo-Dutch Wars. This conflict mostly took place in the Spice Islands and there-abouts. It seems mine might have been fashioned in such a place for a Dutch sailor or captain, as this style of sword was, as noted, carried by some of the heads of the VOC.

AHorsa · 26th November 2018, 01:10 PM

Thank you gentlemen.

I cleaned it with a small wire brush (for gimlets). Luckily the rust or patina was thick but very easy to remove. On other items it didn´t work with that method.

Intererstingly there are remains of glasslike black material in some of the carves, which makes me think that maybe the structure was elaborated with a Niello technique.

Best regards
Andreas

AHorsa · 26th April 2022, 10:16 PM

Dear all,

allow me to fetch up this old thread. It´s now nearly 10 Years I own this piece and it still won´t let me go. From time to time I do a bit of research on it and my biggest dream is to find a painting showing it´s owner with the sword

I know it is very very unlikely, but I am sure such a painting once existed. The question is: did it survive and is it listed somewhere...

But anyway: I just stumbled over a picture I saved as a reference years ago with the comment "Sweden, 1660-90". I´ve found several swords with similar lion cross-guard, many of them indicates the Netherlands as origin but there are also pieces with other provenience. But this is the first time I found this wave-like decorations on the guards. Also the tool used to decorate the stylized head seems to be similar to the one used to form the lions coat. Maybe this can be a another hint to its origin.
Sadly I can´t remember where I saved it from, only that it was a (Swedish?) museums online gallery without more information.

Does anyone of you know similar examples?

Kind regards
Andreas

1st May 2014, 04:57 PM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Lionhilt Broadsword 17th Century? Hello Together, Some month ago I got this interesting sword. It was covered by a thick patina (see first picture) which was easy to remove. Surprisingly the condition under the patina was quite good. It is 90cm long, the blade is 77cm. The Guard is cutted from iron, no iron casting. There was a thumb-ring on the shell-guard, removed in the old times and the blade is signed with the "passauer Wolf" and the "magical number" 1518. I found a similar piece (converning the lion-guard) at Hermann-Historica, Auction 62/63 -> a selection of collectibles -> Hunting Hangers Lot Nr. 2330c http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_...ion-62-63.html I got three different opinions on this piece: - "maybe historism (19th cent.) while using a blade of the 17th." - "Officers Felddegen, around 1660, the guard in the style of Gottfried Leygebe" - "Guard around 1580, Northitalian, the blade marriaged with the guard around 1600" My opinion: Due to searching a lot of catalogues etc. I think the second opinion (around 1660) is the most likely one. But I couldn´t find an identical or nearly identical piece. In my eyes evidence against historism is the removed thumb-ring and the deep nick/cut on one of the stirrups (sse picture), which seems to originate from another edge weapon, also as this potential hit bended the stirrup out of shape (see last pic). I would be very interested in your opinion about this peace. Maybe you can also help me to find out about the geographical context of the sword. Thanks and best regards, Andi Attached Images

2nd May 2014, 01:29 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Andi, welcome to the forum Say, aren't you skipping over a vital detail, which is that mark on the ricasso ? Once identified, it will be more than half way to find the provenance of your sword and potentialy remove the historism possibility. Can you take a better picture of this one ? . Attached Images

2nd May 2014, 02:32 PM	#4
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Hi at all and thanks for your replies. Fernando you are right, I forgot to mention the mark. Here is a better picture of it. I studied some books about Solingen-Marks but couldn´t find it. Best regards, Andi Attached Images

3rd May 2014, 05:31 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Mark, as shown with that astute assessment, you are far from 'novice'!!!! I agree on the period, which I think is around mid 17th perhaps into the first half. Excellent observation on the Dutch associations, and the style of the hilt does recall some of the elaborately carved themes on these colonial hilts favored through VOC trade in the East Indies. However, I am inclined to see this as among the English 'riding swords' of this period, and the sometimes almost fanciful use of heraldic lions in a themed hilt corresponds in degree to many of these kinds of hilts with the 'green man' and of the type. In many cases this motif is in accord with some seen even on the so called 'mortuary' hilts with facemask etc. in the style at least. The one thing which would set this attribution outside England would be the thumb ring, or former presence of it, as this is very much a Continental feature. Here I would point out the profound connections between England and the Netherlands in these times, in fact Great Britain became essentially a Dutch dominion under William of Orange by the end of the century . The influences shared in weaponry between Dutch and English styles is seen well into the 18th century, especially in smallswords, which actually seem to have evolved from such riding swords amalgamated with the rapier. The shellguard seems much in accord with these riding swords, and Mark's note on the curvature of same is well placed. To me the patination looks good, and concurs with swords of this age. The blade is interesting, and I have not found information on these rather unusual lenticular blades, but know they were used of course. The stamp at the forte seems floral, but I cant make it out. In style it seems like it could be one of the town stamps used by VOC kamers (the seven chambers in Netherlands) but have not yet found more . As well noted by Andi, the 1518 is indeed a magic number rather than date, and the running wolf along with it indicates of course pretty much a standard pairing for Solingen products of these times. Here I would note that I truly appreciate the preliminary research, well detailed description and good photos provided by Andi in this thread. Nicely done, and thank you Andi! In conclusion, I do not think this is in any way a historism piece, but as always I would defer to opinions of Jasper or Michael. All best regards, Jim PS, the suggestion to the work of Gottfried Leygebe seems interesting. There appears to be a pertinent article by Ada Bruhn, "Der Schwertfeger Gottfried Leygebe" in Vol I of 'Tojhusmuseets Skrifter' (1945) but I could not access it . Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd May 2014 at 05:54 PM.

26th April 2022, 10:16 PM	#12
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Dear all, allow me to fetch up this old thread. It´s now nearly 10 Years I own this piece and it still won´t let me go. From time to time I do a bit of research on it and my biggest dream is to find a painting showing it´s owner with the sword I know it is very very unlikely, but I am sure such a painting once existed. The question is: did it survive and is it listed somewhere... But anyway: I just stumbled over a picture I saved as a reference years ago with the comment "Sweden, 1660-90". I´ve found several swords with similar lion cross-guard, many of them indicates the Netherlands as origin but there are also pieces with other provenience. But this is the first time I found this wave-like decorations on the guards. Also the tool used to decorate the stylized head seems to be similar to the one used to form the lions coat. Maybe this can be a another hint to its origin. Sadly I can´t remember where I saved it from, only that it was a (Swedish?) museums online gallery without more information. Does anyone of you know similar examples? Kind regards Andreas Attached Images

2nd May 2014, 11:54 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	I'm a novice here, but I just wanted to say that your sword is magnificent! I love this style of guard. I would wager the second opinion as well, but perhaps early 17th century, Dutch colonial, perhaps made in Indonesia or Shri Lanka (colonial lions similar to those VOC swords of the period?). I see why it could be 1660's, as the shell is curved vs. flat outcropping seen on early hangers. Also, the timeline would fit with the early Anglo-Dutch Wars, when similar pieces were being produced-

4th May 2014, 01:58 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	I did forget to thank Andi for psoting this fascinating sword! I love pieces from this time period, particularly the early hanger types. Thank you, Jim, for the complement! It means much coming from one of the founding fathers of the Forum! (Not trying to show your age or anything- ). I had forgotten about the riding swords and their somewhat whimsical dsigns. Very well placed and definitely a good possibility. I do have to read up on those amazing sword types from that era. Fernando, you were very astute to point out the stamp. Even I had blundered past it when this thread was originally posted. Is there any possibility that flower could be a tulip? (Dutch tip of the hat again. Sorry, can't get past those lions ). Jim pointed out the lentricular blade pattern. Was this type used on Brit swords? Dutch? German? Also, the iron hilt being chizeled/cut and not forged. Does this point to an attribution? Jim, you are right, we need Jasper or Michael on this one! Or perhaps someone else? Where are the forumites hiding-

25th November 2018, 05:16 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Great thread from 'the old days'!!! Mark, perfectly illustrates what an astute collector you are, and how much we have learned with the things you have shared here over so many years. Outstanding Cap'n!!!

26th November 2018, 05:59 AM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Thanks, Cap'n Jim! Mine pales in comparison to the original starter of this thread, but it is interesting to note that the hilt on my more primitive piece is made from tropical carved orangy-colored wood. These Dutch lion hangers and swords all date to the 1650-1700 period, right during the time of the Anglo-Dutch Wars. This conflict mostly took place in the Spice Islands and there-abouts. It seems mine might have been fashioned in such a place for a Dutch sailor or captain, as this style of sword was, as noted, carried by some of the heads of the VOC.

26th November 2018, 01:10 PM	#11
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Thank you gentlemen. I cleaned it with a small wire brush (for gimlets). Luckily the rust or patina was thick but very easy to remove. On other items it didn´t work with that method. Intererstingly there are remains of glasslike black material in some of the carves, which makes me think that maybe the structure was elaborated with a Niello technique. Best regards Andreas