Etching wootz, opinion needed.

Drabant1701 · 13th January 2018, 11:32 AM

I am once again in need of assistance when etching. I have etched an indian sword in my possesion. I have etched with ferric chloride at about 30%. The sword etches very quickly, about 5-10 seconds will give it a good dark etch.

Now to the problem. There is an area that etches diffrently then the rest of the sword (see picture) the area is on both sides of the sword. I tried ligthly polishing it and the etching again, and repeated three more times. But the result was only slightly better.

I do not think it is a forging flaw. Maybe some result of heat treatment, but the why would the are around it be lighter.

I am thinking that maybe there was rust on the blade and someone sanded away the rust and this is why it looks this way.

I was thinking that if I polished the blade with starting with a rougher polishing paper 400 then upp to 2000 the blade would etch lighter but more uniform. BUT since I dont really know that that will work I am unvilling to try.

I know that there are members on this forum that has had a lot of experience with etching and I am hoping that someone has encountered something similar and is willing to share there knowlege. So In your opinion should I just leave it as is or is there a way to etch it more uniform. If I polish the etched blade it the flaw will become allmost invisible while the pattern is still visible. But we all want that dark etch, dont we

mariusgmioc · 13th January 2018, 02:35 PM

Hello,

I encountered exactly the same problem a few times already. I tried etching with Nital, FeCl and even with a dilution of Perma Blue but the faded areas would stay the same.

My conclusion is that the difference is caused by some kind of heat treatment that affected the structure of the wootz.

I am attaching some photos of a Persian Kard displaying the same problem. I also have this on a Persian Shamshir.

So my opinion is that you should leave it as it is.

To what grit did you polish the sword before etching?

Regards,

Marius

thomas hauschild · 13th January 2018, 02:38 PM

As a knifemaker I do not use iron3chlorid anymore. I hate that. Every little difference in degreasing and difference in heat-treating is visible and any micron rest of the acid will result rust. After lots of oil you can have a red rust if you do not take care.

I have etched some pieces of wootz with nital, which works well. Instant coffee makes a good black colour and from my experience its makes a more ph-neutral surface which will not rust so easy.

At the end I have etched some hundred blades of different damascus-steels and every blade was different. Sometimes there were great different results even if the steel was from the same billet. There was often a situation that I decided to grind the etch away and to do everything again and then the result was much better. Every none uniform quenching will result clouds in the etching (You can name it hamon when itˋs under control )

With that now visible areas on your blade it will be difficult to get a better result without grinding everything away to a shiny bladesteel. So every blade is different and it will be difficult to give you a receipt that will work 100%. Try out only light etching which will not remove much of the steel. Grind a small area with 1200 grit shiny on your blade were it is bright and dark together and try nital with some drops. Maybe you will find a solution that will work. Good luck

Best Thomas

Drabant1701 · 13th January 2018, 04:24 PM

Thank you Marius and Thomas for your replys.

I polished 600 grit to 1200 grit to 4000 grit polish paper on this one. The first etching was with lemon, that worked fine. But since it showed this area of bad etching I repolished and etched the last 1/3 of the sword with ferric chloride just to see if it produced a better result on the problem area. It did not.

So I have to repolish and etch one last time. I will most likely etch it with lemon. Ferric chloride give a darker pattern but I agree with Thomas, Ferric is not fun to work with and I have had problems getting good etchings on other blades I have.

Thomas, I would love to try etching with Nital, but it is not possible to get it in Sweden.
I did not know that it was possible to etch wootz with instant coffe. I really need to give that a try. Approximately how long does it need to be emerged in the coffe for it to etch?

Thats a great looking dagger Marius, that chaotic wootz sure is facinating to look at.

regards
Peter

ariel · 13th January 2018, 05:31 PM

How do you do it with instant coffee?

thomas hauschild · 13th January 2018, 10:17 PM

Water and some spoons of instant coffee. It is a very slow etching. You can put a blade in for some hours without a big risk to remove too much steel. But it will etch to a deep black and you can feel a structure after a day on damascus blades. I use it everytime for damascus blades. Some weeks ago I have found a pamor lancehead on a fleemarket and the coffee worked better than ferric acid. To bring out a deep structure on my damascus I start with sulfuracid to „make the structure“ first. But the colour is often gray with that and the coffee afterwards brings out a deep black on the none nickelsteel. I do not know what the coffee makes with the surface. But the black colour seems to be relative stable against new rust. With ferric I have sometimes the first slight red rust after seconds and you are not fast enough with cleaning it. I have made some copper/iron mokume gane some weeks ago and the coffee is able to make the iron black without etching the copper. So it is a wide field for testing.

My experience with antique wootz blades is , of course, a minor experience. I do not have so much of them. 😢And as I said , each blade will etch different.
Hope I can help a little bit.

Best Thomas

mariusgmioc · 13th January 2018, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas hauschild

Water and some spoons of instant coffee. It is a very slow etching. You can put a blade in for some hours without a big risk to remove too much steel. But it will etch to a deep black and you can feel a structure after a day on damascus blades.

Best Thomas

Very, very interesting! Definitely worth a try.

Thank you!

JT88 · 12th September 2021, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas hauschild

Water and some spoons of instant coffee. It is a very slow etching. You can put a blade in for some hours without a big risk to remove too much steel. But it will etch to a deep black and you can feel a structure after a day on Damascus blades.

Sorry to revive this thread but I have been attempting to etch an old Turkish Pala and have had a couple of issues that maybe you guys can answer.

I have now tried both 2% nital and ferric chloride. The nital seems superior as it does not rust as quickly, but as others have pointed out it is very non-uniform in its etch. I apply with a paintbrush. I've also tried applying with cotton pads but it doesn't seem to work as well.

Ferric chloride mixed 5:1 almost immediately rusts the blade, prior to even bringing out any pattern. So it has been retired from use.

I have been mixing a large amount of baking soda with water but it seems ineffective in neutralizing the acid. Though from what I have read it seems you guys are rinsing the blade and rubbing baking soda directly onto the blade if I read that correctly? So not mixing it prior.

Finally, I'd like some more info on the instant coffee method, are you simply leaving the blade in water mixed with instant coffee for many hours? Seems like there is good feedback on this method and I'd like to give it a go.

Regards,
Jack

Jens Nordlunde · 7th January 2020, 04:25 PM

Yes cherry coloured steel would keep the pattern.

ariel · 7th January 2020, 09:26 PM

Yes, but would it be enough to assure good forging?

Jens Nordlunde · 7th January 2020, 09:34 PM

I dont know. But I am sure that working cherry heated iren must have been quite hard - not that I have ever tried.

Rick · 8th January 2020, 12:44 AM

Maybe with a proper type of flux the scarf joint between the dissimilar steels could have been achieved.
I would imagine Ric Furrer might have some thoughts on the subject.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th January 2020, 03:41 PM

When I have etched a blade with Ferric chloride, I wash it , dry it with a heater, and while the blade is still warm I soak it in white vaselineoil and leave it for some time.

13th January 2018, 11:32 AM	#1
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Etching wootz, opinion needed. I am once again in need of assistance when etching. I have etched an indian sword in my possesion. I have etched with ferric chloride at about 30%. The sword etches very quickly, about 5-10 seconds will give it a good dark etch. Now to the problem. There is an area that etches diffrently then the rest of the sword (see picture) the area is on both sides of the sword. I tried ligthly polishing it and the etching again, and repeated three more times. But the result was only slightly better. I do not think it is a forging flaw. Maybe some result of heat treatment, but the why would the are around it be lighter. I am thinking that maybe there was rust on the blade and someone sanded away the rust and this is why it looks this way. I was thinking that if I polished the blade with starting with a rougher polishing paper 400 then upp to 2000 the blade would etch lighter but more uniform. BUT since I dont really know that that will work I am unvilling to try. I know that there are members on this forum that has had a lot of experience with etching and I am hoping that someone has encountered something similar and is willing to share there knowlege. So In your opinion should I just leave it as is or is there a way to etch it more uniform. If I polish the etched blade it the flaw will become allmost invisible while the pattern is still visible. But we all want that dark etch, dont we Attached Images

13th January 2018, 02:35 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello, I encountered exactly the same problem a few times already. I tried etching with Nital, FeCl and even with a dilution of Perma Blue but the faded areas would stay the same. My conclusion is that the difference is caused by some kind of heat treatment that affected the structure of the wootz. I am attaching some photos of a Persian Kard displaying the same problem. I also have this on a Persian Shamshir. So my opinion is that you should leave it as it is. To what grit did you polish the sword before etching? Regards, Marius Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 13th January 2018 at 03:15 PM.

13th January 2018, 04:24 PM	#4
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Thank you Marius and Thomas for your replys. I polished 600 grit to 1200 grit to 4000 grit polish paper on this one. The first etching was with lemon, that worked fine. But since it showed this area of bad etching I repolished and etched the last 1/3 of the sword with ferric chloride just to see if it produced a better result on the problem area. It did not. So I have to repolish and etch one last time. I will most likely etch it with lemon. Ferric chloride give a darker pattern but I agree with Thomas, Ferric is not fun to work with and I have had problems getting good etchings on other blades I have. Thomas, I would love to try etching with Nital, but it is not possible to get it in Sweden. I did not know that it was possible to etch wootz with instant coffe. I really need to give that a try. Approximately how long does it need to be emerged in the coffe for it to etch? Thats a great looking dagger Marius, that chaotic wootz sure is facinating to look at. regards Peter Last edited by Drabant1701; 13th January 2018 at 09:38 PM.

13th January 2018, 02:38 PM	#3
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	As a knifemaker I do not use iron3chlorid anymore. I hate that. Every little difference in degreasing and difference in heat-treating is visible and any micron rest of the acid will result rust. After lots of oil you can have a red rust if you do not take care. I have etched some pieces of wootz with nital, which works well. Instant coffee makes a good black colour and from my experience its makes a more ph-neutral surface which will not rust so easy. At the end I have etched some hundred blades of different damascus-steels and every blade was different. Sometimes there were great different results even if the steel was from the same billet. There was often a situation that I decided to grind the etch away and to do everything again and then the result was much better. Every none uniform quenching will result clouds in the etching (You can name it hamon when itˋs under control ) With that now visible areas on your blade it will be difficult to get a better result without grinding everything away to a shiny bladesteel. So every blade is different and it will be difficult to give you a receipt that will work 100%. Try out only light etching which will not remove much of the steel. Grind a small area with 1200 grit shiny on your blade were it is bright and dark together and try nital with some drops. Maybe you will find a solution that will work. Good luck Best Thomas

13th January 2018, 05:31 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How do you do it with instant coffee?

13th January 2018, 10:17 PM	#6
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	Water and some spoons of instant coffee. It is a very slow etching. You can put a blade in for some hours without a big risk to remove too much steel. But it will etch to a deep black and you can feel a structure after a day on damascus blades. I use it everytime for damascus blades. Some weeks ago I have found a pamor lancehead on a fleemarket and the coffee worked better than ferric acid. To bring out a deep structure on my damascus I start with sulfuracid to „make the structure“ first. But the colour is often gray with that and the coffee afterwards brings out a deep black on the none nickelsteel. I do not know what the coffee makes with the surface. But the black colour seems to be relative stable against new rust. With ferric I have sometimes the first slight red rust after seconds and you are not fast enough with cleaning it. I have made some copper/iron mokume gane some weeks ago and the coffee is able to make the iron black without etching the copper. So it is a wide field for testing. My experience with antique wootz blades is , of course, a minor experience. I do not have so much of them. 😢And as I said , each blade will etch different. Hope I can help a little bit. Best Thomas

7th January 2020, 04:25 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes cherry coloured steel would keep the pattern.

7th January 2020, 09:26 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, but would it be enough to assure good forging?

7th January 2020, 09:34 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I dont know. But I am sure that working cherry heated iren must have been quite hard - not that I have ever tried.

8th January 2020, 12:44 AM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Maybe with a proper type of flux the scarf joint between the dissimilar steels could have been achieved. I would imagine Ric Furrer might have some thoughts on the subject.

9th January 2020, 03:41 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	When I have etched a blade with Ferric chloride, I wash it , dry it with a heater, and while the blade is still warm I soak it in white vaselineoil and leave it for some time.