Correctly Identifying a Borneo Sword

CharlesS · 20th April 2013, 06:03 PM

Were it 15 years ago I would simply have identified the sword pictured below as a Dyak mandau...on the assumption it's Dyak, so it must be a mandau.

Probably about 7 years ago I would have changed that assumption to rename it a jimpul...it is Dyak and curved, so it must be a jimpul.

I would have been wrong on both counts....

Over the last several years our Borneo specialists, most notably VVV, Maurice, MandauKudi, and Asomotif have proven to us that we can explore much more deeply the correct classification of Dyak weapons based on specific details and nuances.

Now I am trying to correctly identify the latest addition to my Dyak collection and I can best ascertain from Shelford/Banks that this is a tilang kamarau, and according the Shelford is a later addition to the Dyak arsenal(post 1902).

I am hoping the "Borneo gang" will chime in and tell me if I am correct or not and feel free to correct me if I am wrong and add anything, hopefully the likely location of its specific origin.

VVV · 20th April 2013, 09:15 PM

Yes Charles, you got it (a tilang kamarau, as described in Baltimore)

I would place it as from South Sarawak and the hilt might be later than the blade.
Maybe you should be a bit careful on using Shelford's date of 1902 as anything else than an indication on when he first saw a TK...

Michael

CharlesS · 20th April 2013, 09:25 PM

Thanks Michael! What features of the pierced hilt suggest that it is later than the blade?? It has a very nice patina.

Regarding the date, are you suggesting the type/style could be earlier, just unknown to him until then??

VVV · 21st April 2013, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Thanks Michael! What features of the pierced hilt suggest that it is later than the blade?? It has a very nice patina.

Regarding the date, are you suggesting the type/style could be earlier, just unknown to him until then??

I just have the impression, based on the motifs and how deep they are carved, that this style of hilt is later.
It is always hard to judge age from pictures so I go more on the choice of motifs and the workmanship.
But if it has more patina than what it looks like on your pictures I might be wrong in this case.

On the date, I am a bit skeptic on Shelford stating a certain year without mentioning what he bases his statement on.
So if 1902 was the first year that Shelford saw them they might be a bit older.
But not as old as the parang niabur and even the langgai tinggang, of course.

Michael

Maurice · 21st April 2013, 10:49 AM

A Very Nice TK Charles!
I would classify this as a Tilang Kemarau also, based on Banks.
But if I was really an expert, I could tell you exactly the differences on all aspects between a "Tilang Kemarau" and a "Suai".
As I do have some ideas about it, I'm not sure about them!
But maybe nobody can tell the exact differences between those two, so we're only driven students of the few in the "top level"?

The blade looks very nice! I myself have the feeling that the blade is the oldest on the TK. It looks to me that the handle and the scabbard could be later and might be from the same date.
Michael described the hypothetis on the handle allready, which I agree upon.
I think the scabbard looks too perfect, and this in combination with the patina made me have this assumption of being also later.
Could we have a close-up of the carvings on the scabbard?

Maurice

Maurice · 21st April 2013, 11:20 AM

PS. I also realise that I have to be very carefull with my statements.
So I want to emphasize that it's sometimes very hard.
Though I stick to my earlier post, it's not a matter of course!
Also old pieces can have shallow carvings in the handle.
And also very old pieces can be in a too perfect state and with no or little patina when it's collected very early and since than stored at some attic or closet.

I have one with somewhat similar features considering the state and patina. Though the carvings are not very deep (besides of the big curls and the carving on top of the handle which comes out of the handle 3dimensional), the patina isn't that great one should suspect, but it is an old style handle.
PS. It's ex-Paul Vermeire and later ex-Coppens (though not depicted in the Coppens book).

I would love to see the carvings on your scabbard closely Charles!

Maurice

VVV · 21st April 2013, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

snip
But if I was really an expert, I could tell you exactly the differences on all aspects between a "Tilang Kemarau" and a "Suai".
As I do have some ideas about it, I'm not sure about them!
But maybe nobody can tell the exact differences between those two, so we're only driven students of the few in the "top level"?

snip
Maurice

Yes, let us avoid the term Suai until we have more criteria than just one uncommented picture.
The same with some other, more regional, Iban terms for the same category of a parang...

Michael

PS Suai is an Iban village so I suspect that the label is geographic, instead of being another category of parang.

asomotif · 20th April 2013, 09:43 PM

[QUOTE=CharlesS]
Over the last several years our Borneo specialists, most notably VVV, Maurice, and Asomotif have proven to us that we can explore much more deeply the correct classification of Dyak weapons based on specific details and nuances.
QUOTE]

Thank you Charles,
But mentioning me in this context is far too much credit.
I am really not good in the name game.
It should probably read : VVV / Mandaukudi (Arjan) / Maurice :-)

Best regards,
Willem

Royston · 2nd October 2013, 12:48 PM

Like Charles, for the last few years I have been calling this a Jimpal.

Should I be calling it a T.K ?

I second Albert in requesting information on the Banks article.
I have been trawling through the web and can find plenty about Banks and the museum but not the 1935 issue.
Has anyone noticed that the latest edition of the Journal also has an article about swords ?

All comments welcome

Thanks
Roy

T. Koch · 2nd October 2013, 08:30 PM

*Michael* For the first time ever, I have a mom in law, who actually likes me, so I think it's just the mum in law-karma finally swinging my way.

*Roy* That one is clearly a common Parang Sellertomelang!

Seriously though, that is a gorgeous hilt (not that the blade is boring). Very crisp and confident carving and delightful to see it still in such great condition. Thanks for sharing!

Cheers, - Thor

VVV · 3rd October 2013, 09:52 AM

Roy,

Your T.K. is an interesting and unusual hybride of elements from Sarawak as well as Central Kalimantan.
Even if it is probably 20th it seems to be a one of a kind...

I have read the latest article, too, and it is mostly a discussion of Shelford's and Banks' articles.

Michael

Royston · 3rd October 2013, 02:04 PM

Thanks Gentlemen

Thor, I prefer the name "Parang Staysonmywall"

Cheers
Roy

20th April 2013, 06:03 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Correctly Identifying a Borneo Sword Were it 15 years ago I would simply have identified the sword pictured below as a Dyak mandau...on the assumption it's Dyak, so it must be a mandau. Probably about 7 years ago I would have changed that assumption to rename it a jimpul...it is Dyak and curved, so it must be a jimpul. I would have been wrong on both counts.... Over the last several years our Borneo specialists, most notably VVV, Maurice, MandauKudi, and Asomotif have proven to us that we can explore much more deeply the correct classification of Dyak weapons based on specific details and nuances. Now I am trying to correctly identify the latest addition to my Dyak collection and I can best ascertain from Shelford/Banks that this is a tilang kamarau, and according the Shelford is a later addition to the Dyak arsenal(post 1902). I am hoping the "Borneo gang" will chime in and tell me if I am correct or not and feel free to correct me if I am wrong and add anything, hopefully the likely location of its specific origin. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 21st April 2013 at 12:51 AM.

21st April 2013, 10:49 AM	#5
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	A Very Nice TK Charles! I would classify this as a Tilang Kemarau also, based on Banks. But if I was really an expert, I could tell you exactly the differences on all aspects between a "Tilang Kemarau" and a "Suai". As I do have some ideas about it, I'm not sure about them! But maybe nobody can tell the exact differences between those two, so we're only driven students of the few in the "top level"? The blade looks very nice! I myself have the feeling that the blade is the oldest on the TK. It looks to me that the handle and the scabbard could be later and might be from the same date. Michael described the hypothetis on the handle allready, which I agree upon. I think the scabbard looks too perfect, and this in combination with the patina made me have this assumption of being also later. Could we have a close-up of the carvings on the scabbard? Maurice Last edited by Maurice; 21st April 2013 at 11:35 AM.

21st April 2013, 11:20 AM	#6
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	PS. I also realise that I have to be very carefull with my statements. So I want to emphasize that it's sometimes very hard. Though I stick to my earlier post, it's not a matter of course! Also old pieces can have shallow carvings in the handle. And also very old pieces can be in a too perfect state and with no or little patina when it's collected very early and since than stored at some attic or closet. I have one with somewhat similar features considering the state and patina. Though the carvings are not very deep (besides of the big curls and the carving on top of the handle which comes out of the handle 3dimensional), the patina isn't that great one should suspect, but it is an old style handle. PS. It's ex-Paul Vermeire and later ex-Coppens (though not depicted in the Coppens book). I would love to see the carvings on your scabbard closely Charles! Maurice Attached Images Last edited by Maurice; 21st April 2013 at 11:36 AM.

2nd October 2013, 12:48 PM	#9
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	TK ? Like Charles, for the last few years I have been calling this a Jimpal. Should I be calling it a T.K ? I second Albert in requesting information on the Banks article. I have been trawling through the web and can find plenty about Banks and the museum but not the 1935 issue. Has anyone noticed that the latest edition of the Journal also has an article about swords ? All comments welcome Thanks Roy Attached Images

20th April 2013, 09:15 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes Charles, you got it (a tilang kamarau, as described in Baltimore) I would place it as from South Sarawak and the hilt might be later than the blade. Maybe you should be a bit careful on using Shelford's date of 1902 as anything else than an indication on when he first saw a TK... Michael

20th April 2013, 09:25 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Thanks Michael! What features of the pierced hilt suggest that it is later than the blade?? It has a very nice patina. Regarding the date, are you suggesting the type/style could be earlier, just unknown to him until then??

20th April 2013, 09:43 PM	#8
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	[QUOTE=CharlesS] Over the last several years our Borneo specialists, most notably VVV, Maurice, and Asomotif have proven to us that we can explore much more deeply the correct classification of Dyak weapons based on specific details and nuances. QUOTE] Thank you Charles, But mentioning me in this context is far too much credit. I am really not good in the name game. It should probably read : VVV / Mandaukudi (Arjan) / Maurice :-) Best regards, Willem

2nd October 2013, 08:30 PM	#10
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Michael For the first time ever, I have a mom in law, who actually likes me, so I think it's just the mum in law-karma finally swinging my way. Roy That one is clearly a common Parang Sellertomelang! Seriously though, that is a gorgeous hilt (not that the blade is boring). Very crisp and confident carving and delightful to see it still in such great condition. Thanks for sharing! Cheers, - Thor

3rd October 2013, 09:52 AM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Roy, Your T.K. is an interesting and unusual hybride of elements from Sarawak as well as Central Kalimantan. Even if it is probably 20th it seems to be a one of a kind... I have read the latest article, too, and it is mostly a discussion of Shelford's and Banks' articles. Michael

3rd October 2013, 02:04 PM	#12
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Thanks Gentlemen Thor, I prefer the name "Parang Staysonmywall" Cheers Roy