A cup hilt sword for coments.

[fernando]

According to seller this is a Spanish colonial specimen ... and i have no reason to doubt it.
Made of silver are the two ferules, the quillons and knuckle guard ends, the grip longitudinal bars, the grip nails and the two cup decoration buttons.
There are vestigial signs on the blade of the classic inscription NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ...
Wide and short ray skin covered grip, probably to lodge two fingers in the brass decorated ricasso.
On its way to my sweet home, arriving next week.
I expect the local friendly silver smith to replicate the missing grip nails.

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[Jim McDougall]

Ok Nando! You know I cant resist Spanish Colonial, and cuphilts get me weak in the knees This example is really amazing, and I have never seen shagreen on anything Spanish Colonial. I feel compelled to add some observations so I must apologize in advance and hope it will not stall the thread.

This is as you have already noted, the strictly business type of cuphilt used on the frontiers of New Spain in the latter 18th century and actually probably well into the 19th. The Peninsular gentry of these regions still retained thier tradition and deep pride in thier noble heritage, and maintained thier fascination with fashions and weapons often considered obsolete elsewhere.
These heavy versions of the cuphilt were more 'arming swords' of course than rapiers, and carried double edged blades usually of hexagonal cross section which are believed to have been produced in Solingen for export to Spains New World colonies.
While it has been well established that the so called 'Spanish motto' noted on this blade, has been around far earlier than the period of these blades, c.1770s, it was indeed popularized largely by the volume of these blades that exist.

Getting to the intriguing grip on this, while it appears to be 'rayskin' which refers to the pearled rayfish, as used and well known on Oriental weapons, and even similar to Tatar swords of the 17th century (termed 'czeczuga' =small sturgeon, Ostrowski, 1979, p.232).....this may be something different.

Apparantly this fashionable covering was popularized in Europe by a master leatherworker in the court of Louis XV named Jean-Claude Galluchat (d.1774). It is noted that while possibly actual shagreen may have been used in cases, it was sometimes imitated by placing embedding seeds over untreated horse skin and covering with soft cloth, then applying pressure. The skin was then dyed from the reverse, often with green dye. This style became extremely popular with French aristocracy in the latter part of the 18th century.

I am wondering if perhaps this sword, the type known widely popular in Spains colonies in Florida and Cuba as well as South America, might have been mounted accordingly using this fashionable material. Obviously there was considerable contact between French and Spanish trade in the Gulf as well as throughout these regions in these times, so this may account for this extremely rare combination in this example.

Attached box covered in 'Galuchat', the term used for this style.

Beautiful piece Nando!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

At last you show up, man .
But i am learning the trick; everytime i wish you to come around, i post a cup hilt sword
Thank you so much for the treatise.
However you know how irreverent i am, daring to (try and) oppose some of your brilliant reasoning, even if it is only for sports sake .
But let me first receive the sword and have a good look at it, to come back here with my humble position on the grip covering material ... among other things.
Keep well, Jim cow boy .

[Jim McDougall]

Ok ya rascal!!! You do absolutely know my weaknesses and a cuphilt will always drag me out of retirement!!!!
Not irreverant Nando, and I always look forward to opposition with the ideas and observations I throw out there,thats why I do it even if not totally sure of whether right or wrong, its how I learn...actually its how we all learn.
Thats why discussions are so important !

When you examine the sword we can have a better view of what the material is, and I know that it is quite likely that this might not be this galuchat material...it may indeed be actual shagreen. There was a great deal of interest in the Orient in the 18th century, and perhaps this rayskin could have been obtained in trade. I wanted to be sure that all options were out there pending your close examination. Whatever the case, this is an absolutely magnificent piece, and another important milestone in the study of these Spanish Colonial items. Nicely done!! and thank you my friend,

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

I'm right there with you, Jim and 'Nando, on these magnificent swords. Sorry to be a late-comer, have been away for a bit. What a beautiful cup-hilt! I'm always amazed at how you find these pieces, my friend. I would kill to have one (well, maybe just maim- ). I've never seen this form of grip material or patterning before on one of these. Jim, I've never heard of this practice of making fake shagreen. Fascinating process, but I wonder why they make it so complicated? Rayskin seemed common enough on other Euro pieces of the times. In any case, I'm glad you spoke of it, as I'll file the info away for future reference.
The "nails" in the grip seem very interesting to me and seem to have an oriental look to me. As Jim pointed out, I know that there was a great interest of such things during this time period. Even the flat pommel strikes me as different from the typical cup-hilt. In any case, what a fine sword!
Soooo, now we know the trick to elicit a response from Jim. Start off with a pic of a nice cup-hilt before segueing to another subject! So, it will be like 'thanks for responding, Jim. Now, your opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts!'

[Jim McDougall]

Yay, Capt. Mark!!! Thank you for coming in, I thought I had as usual, sent this thread to Davey Jones locker. So I see you note that you and Nando have my mark, and draw me out of the shadows with a pretty cuphilt
For you, the mention of nautical or Spanish Colonial will bring you in....now if we could figure as much for the hoardes lurking out there, and what it will take to get them onboard.

What!!! narwhal tusks on claymore hilts!!! ????? Auugghhhh! off again, hoist the mainsail!!!

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Cap'n Mark,
Thanks for coming aboard ... better late than ever .

I see that the trick to bring you around is coming here to ask people their opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts! .

Concerning how i find these pieces ... well, at specialized shops and websites; so they are not cheap at all. Each one of them costs more than a full load of powder kegs .

The grip silver nails; what i find more amazing in them, is that practicaly each one of them has a different shape.
I am thinking of asking my jewelry shop owner friend to have his smith to replicate (at least some of) the missing units.

Now Jim, are these pictures good enough to figure out what the grip cover material is? I confess i am amazed at the 'asterisk' shape of the worn 'bulbs'; would this be normal in ray skin ?

I wonder, as i find it admitable, that this hilt attitude was a later embelishment to this sword but, full of silver details as it is, it certainly belonged to an owner with a position higher that the common rank and file ... don't you guys agree?

Concerning this sword's age, can't you 'make it' a bit earlier ... to come close to seller's assumption: circa 1700?

Ah, something i almost forgot to mention; atypically, the inscription on the blade, instead of having engraved half of the sentence in each face, has the full phrase in both sides, in a double row manner.

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