Dutch sword?

jonng · 4th October 2007, 11:47 AM

Hi All,

This sword was collected in Lombok in the 80's. Appreciate if anyone can provide more info and confirm if it's Dutch. Thanks!

jonathan

ariel · 4th October 2007, 01:50 PM

Rather interesting how the concave tip reminds of the Berber swords...

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 01:31 AM

Yes Ariel..it is very interesting.

Henk · 6th October 2007, 08:34 PM

It is Dutch. This is a M1852 infantry officers sabre. Scabbard is a replacement. The original scabbard is a white metal sabre scabbard.
Notice that the wire of the grip is gone.

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 08:57 PM

Hello Jonng,
Most interesting sword and as you have indicated it is provenanced to probable regions in Indonesia, certainly has strong likelihood to be a regulation sword from the Netherlands. While military swords themselves are of course not ethnographic, they often are strongly associated in that they often found use by native groups in whole, or in part in the use of the blades.

The hilt form on this sword suggests it is likely a regulation pattern of a general pattern adopted by many countries and often followed early 19th century French neoclassic forms. The best reference to check on such typology for Dutch weapons would be "Blanke Wapens" (J.P.Puype, Amsterdam, 1981). While typically one would presume military weapons found in Indonesia might be naval swords as it was of course a maritime trade colony, it is well known that army occupational forces were of course also prevalent. Since there do not seem to be naval devices in the motif, it seems likely this may belong to the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army (KNIL) and may have seen service in such conflicts as the Padri War (1821-1845); the Java War (1825-1830) and the Aceh War (1873-1901).
(my thanks to Bill Marsh who provided this data in his post on 'klewang' dated 3/12/07

)

As Ariel has noted, the unusual profiling on the tip of the blade is very much like that seen on the 'Berber' sabres that we have discussed over so many years. In recent discussions, there has been compelling evidence that suggests these distinctly patterned swords may be other than the suggested Moroccan associated identification, and might even have provenance as far as Indonesian. As always, more research needed!

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 08:59 PM

Hey Henk!!!!
Ya got me!!!

Your post came up just as I posted mine!!!
Thank you for the ID.....did you use the Puype book? I wish I had it handy.

All the best,
Jim

Henk · 6th October 2007, 10:14 PM

Hello Jim,

Indeed we just crossed. No I didn't used the book in this case, although I have it on the shell.

I googled (in dutch of course) and came on a dutch site and found the sabre, but I'm convinced it is in the Puype-book.

Regards, Henk

4th October 2007, 11:47 AM	#1
jonng Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 41	Dutch sword? Hi All, This sword was collected in Lombok in the 80's. Appreciate if anyone can provide more info and confirm if it's Dutch. Thanks! jonathan Attached Images

4th October 2007, 01:50 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Rather interesting how the concave tip reminds of the Berber swords...

6th October 2007, 01:31 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Yes Ariel..it is very interesting.

6th October 2007, 08:34 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	It is Dutch. This is a M1852 infantry officers sabre. Scabbard is a replacement. The original scabbard is a white metal sabre scabbard. Notice that the wire of the grip is gone.

6th October 2007, 08:57 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hello Jonng, Most interesting sword and as you have indicated it is provenanced to probable regions in Indonesia, certainly has strong likelihood to be a regulation sword from the Netherlands. While military swords themselves are of course not ethnographic, they often are strongly associated in that they often found use by native groups in whole, or in part in the use of the blades. The hilt form on this sword suggests it is likely a regulation pattern of a general pattern adopted by many countries and often followed early 19th century French neoclassic forms. The best reference to check on such typology for Dutch weapons would be "Blanke Wapens" (J.P.Puype, Amsterdam, 1981). While typically one would presume military weapons found in Indonesia might be naval swords as it was of course a maritime trade colony, it is well known that army occupational forces were of course also prevalent. Since there do not seem to be naval devices in the motif, it seems likely this may belong to the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army (KNIL) and may have seen service in such conflicts as the Padri War (1821-1845); the Java War (1825-1830) and the Aceh War (1873-1901). (my thanks to Bill Marsh who provided this data in his post on 'klewang' dated 3/12/07 ) As Ariel has noted, the unusual profiling on the tip of the blade is very much like that seen on the 'Berber' sabres that we have discussed over so many years. In recent discussions, there has been compelling evidence that suggests these distinctly patterned swords may be other than the suggested Moroccan associated identification, and might even have provenance as far as Indonesian. As always, more research needed! All best regards, Jim

6th October 2007, 08:59 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hey Henk!!!! Ya got me!!! Your post came up just as I posted mine!!! Thank you for the ID.....did you use the Puype book? I wish I had it handy. All the best, Jim

6th October 2007, 10:14 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hello Jim, Indeed we just crossed. No I didn't used the book in this case, although I have it on the shell. I googled (in dutch of course) and came on a dutch site and found the sabre, but I'm convinced it is in the Puype-book. Regards, Henk