Flyssa with yataghan-like blade

Emanuel · 26th August 2013, 03:37 PM

Hi everyone,

Got my hands on an interesting flyssa recently. It's a big one, 42"(110cm) long overall with the usual decorative scheme, a bit crudely done thought, compared to nicer ones.

The unusual bit is the shape of the blade. No wide recurving belly, just a relatively uniform width tapering to a point, all of it, including the spine curving forward.

I looks like a very long yataghan blade.

We've seen an example of a flyssa with a back curve, but this is the first one I see with a full forward curve.

Thoughts?
Emanuel

Emanuel · 26th August 2013, 03:42 PM

Here is the back curved example.

Emanuel · 26th August 2013, 03:46 PM

And another very similar curved one although it features unconventional handle construction.

Iain · 26th August 2013, 04:30 PM

Interesting piece. I've seen posts here (probably yours!) before with shorter, wide bellied flyssa with yat-like blades.

Any thoughts onto what came first? The shorter variants progressing to the longer examples?

Is there any cultural/status indications with the length? Some of them are pretty dramatic.

Emanuel · 26th August 2013, 04:51 PM

I guess it depends on what the original inspiration was.

If the flyssa developed from the yataghan, then the shorter beefy ones came first and got progressively longer as other influences exerted themselves.

If it developed from a Circassian-type sabre, then the very long ones came first and got shorter as they transitioned to a foot soldier's weapon. My understanding is that the very short ones came last when the local Kabyle arms industry was shut down by the French, and the markets changed.

I consider these curved examples to be small, custom runs, deviating from the classical examples we know.

The fine art history student looks for a progressive development chain. In all forms of plastic arts you can follow development from an early prototype of some sort, progressing into something new. It's very difficult to see that in the flyssa. It seems to have just appeared, fully formed, like Athena bursting from Zeus' head

There's also the possibility of the older prototypes having been recycled as something else, or having been upgraded to the classical style. This would explain how the unusual flyssa can deviate in form but maintain the decorative scheme.

Lots of thoughts to sort out...

Jim McDougall · 26th August 2013, 07:47 PM

Absolutely amazing Emanuel!!! This one is truly unusual, but not entirely surprising in the remarkable scope of these mysterious Berber swords.
We have been discussing the flyssa for how many years now? It seems at least about 12 years, and you have tenaciously and faithfully progesssed our awareness of them all along.

It seems that like with many ethnographic edged weapons, years of broadly assumed developmental theory and often regional classification has proven to be highly questionable and wrought with dispute. I think we are still as far from conclusive agreement on the origins of the flyssa, and it becomes even more clouded with the range of variations that have been revealed over years.

I think personally still that the basic form, with deep belly, indeed likely was influenced by early yataghans with more of a straight back rather than the standard recurve.
With the profound presence of Circassians in the Ottoman sphere in North Africa, I have always been curious on the distinctive needle point on the flyssa, which recalls many forms of sabre blade on Tatar examples ( the ordynka for one). By the same token, curved blades of course could have influence of wider scope.

As we discussed years ago, I believe the flyssa itself was a regionally developed form from other types of sword but produced locally in a rather iconic sense. As I understood, the young mans sword and its acquisition was a sort of 'rite of passage'. It would seem that as many of these were produced in a 'custom' manner for individuals, there may have been variations accordingly toward personal specifications. It seems I was once told as well that the yataghan itself was highly favored and aspired to by young Kabyle men, despite the clear resistance to Ottoman suzerainty.

Do you think these unusual variations may be examples of such personal tastes, or possibly reflecting either regional or period influences of other contemporary forms of weapon?

These circumstances notwithstanding, it would seem any sort of progressive development of the flyssa form itself remains as elusive as ever

All the best,
Jim

26th August 2013, 03:37 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Flyssa with yataghan-like blade Hi everyone, Got my hands on an interesting flyssa recently. It's a big one, 42"(110cm) long overall with the usual decorative scheme, a bit crudely done thought, compared to nicer ones. The unusual bit is the shape of the blade. No wide recurving belly, just a relatively uniform width tapering to a point, all of it, including the spine curving forward. I looks like a very long yataghan blade. We've seen an example of a flyssa with a back curve, but this is the first one I see with a full forward curve. Thoughts? Emanuel Attached Images

26th August 2013, 03:42 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here is the back curved example. Attached Images

26th August 2013, 03:46 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	And another very similar curved one although it features unconventional handle construction. Attached Images

26th August 2013, 04:30 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Interesting piece. I've seen posts here (probably yours!) before with shorter, wide bellied flyssa with yat-like blades. Any thoughts onto what came first? The shorter variants progressing to the longer examples? Is there any cultural/status indications with the length? Some of them are pretty dramatic.

26th August 2013, 04:51 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I guess it depends on what the original inspiration was. If the flyssa developed from the yataghan, then the shorter beefy ones came first and got progressively longer as other influences exerted themselves. If it developed from a Circassian-type sabre, then the very long ones came first and got shorter as they transitioned to a foot soldier's weapon. My understanding is that the very short ones came last when the local Kabyle arms industry was shut down by the French, and the markets changed. I consider these curved examples to be small, custom runs, deviating from the classical examples we know. The fine art history student looks for a progressive development chain. In all forms of plastic arts you can follow development from an early prototype of some sort, progressing into something new. It's very difficult to see that in the flyssa. It seems to have just appeared, fully formed, like Athena bursting from Zeus' head There's also the possibility of the older prototypes having been recycled as something else, or having been upgraded to the classical style. This would explain how the unusual flyssa can deviate in form but maintain the decorative scheme. Lots of thoughts to sort out...

26th August 2013, 07:47 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,902	Absolutely amazing Emanuel!!! This one is truly unusual, but not entirely surprising in the remarkable scope of these mysterious Berber swords. We have been discussing the flyssa for how many years now? It seems at least about 12 years, and you have tenaciously and faithfully progesssed our awareness of them all along. It seems that like with many ethnographic edged weapons, years of broadly assumed developmental theory and often regional classification has proven to be highly questionable and wrought with dispute. I think we are still as far from conclusive agreement on the origins of the flyssa, and it becomes even more clouded with the range of variations that have been revealed over years. I think personally still that the basic form, with deep belly, indeed likely was influenced by early yataghans with more of a straight back rather than the standard recurve. With the profound presence of Circassians in the Ottoman sphere in North Africa, I have always been curious on the distinctive needle point on the flyssa, which recalls many forms of sabre blade on Tatar examples ( the ordynka for one). By the same token, curved blades of course could have influence of wider scope. As we discussed years ago, I believe the flyssa itself was a regionally developed form from other types of sword but produced locally in a rather iconic sense. As I understood, the young mans sword and its acquisition was a sort of 'rite of passage'. It would seem that as many of these were produced in a 'custom' manner for individuals, there may have been variations accordingly toward personal specifications. It seems I was once told as well that the yataghan itself was highly favored and aspired to by young Kabyle men, despite the clear resistance to Ottoman suzerainty. Do you think these unusual variations may be examples of such personal tastes, or possibly reflecting either regional or period influences of other contemporary forms of weapon? These circumstances notwithstanding, it would seem any sort of progressive development of the flyssa form itself remains as elusive as ever All the best, Jim