A cavalry sword ... still in time for Christmas

fernando · 26th December 2011, 02:58 PM

So this guy visited me last Saturday, to show me a sword belonging to a friend who wishes to get rid of it.
I look at it and asked the price, but he says it must be me to offer. I advance with a figure and (through the phone) the owner immediately accepts ... as long as i pay in the moment ... in cash.
This is why i went (again) beyond the expected Christmas budget and brought in this 'non looked for' addition to the house 'furniture'.
According to the books this is what the Spaniards call a mounted sword for cavalry model 1796, with barquilla con vela (boat and sail) guard.
Looking to the descriptions and images available, it is an exception that the grip copper wiring is 'caged', not by the usual rigid iron bars but also by twisted wiring, this in brass.
However and for me the great novelty is that the blade is a typical French one, made in the famous Manufacture de Klingenthal. I can trace blades for these swords being imported from Solingen, but not from France; i am trying to get comments on this situation from a Spanish expert i know.
The inscription on the blade spine shows it was made during the Imperial period and the inspection poinçons (MOUTON and BEAUMARETZ) confirm its production date, that of 1803.
Although the sword model is named 1796, the date of 1803 was apparantly the first year of its appearance in the forces; the Spanish swords nomenclature functions that way.
This blade its rather lengthy, with its 93 cms, same as those of Spanish standard for this model; only that the basic version is double edged and this Klingenthal specimen is single edged, with two wide fullers ... like those in curved sabres, but in this case straight, with only a vestigial curve near the tip.
Please enjoy the pictures ... and post some comments, if you feel like

.

.

fernando · 26th December 2011, 02:59 PM

The marks.

.

kronckew · 26th December 2011, 03:28 PM

just a thought without any major evidence:

during the penninsular war, nappy put one of his brothers on the spanish throne, all looked well for the frenchies. could they have supplied blades for the 'new' kings troops? joe napoleon, i gather, wasn't very popular.

i'd like to think however that after the spanish army destroyed the grand armee of france at Bailén, killing about 6000 & capturing over 18000, including killing over 2500 cavalry during their vain attempt to escape, a lot of nice kleigenthal blades would have been available for conversion into preferred spanish forms.

edited:

interesting detail - the two screws holding the 'sail' to the rest of the guard are slotted on the outside, but peened on the inside.

Jim McDougall · 26th December 2011, 09:59 PM

An absolutely magnificent acquisition Nando!!!!! and outstanding observations by Kronckew.There were indeed powerful French influences in play near the turn of the century, and actually the dragoon sword that was referred to as the M1799 was influenced by contemporary French sabres with the 'birdhead' type pommel/backstrap. This was the model that appeared in the 1803 text regulations.

This particular form of cuphilt was I think as you mention possibly called a M1798, but it seems that its classification is a bit sketchy. I think that Juan Perez has more on that but I hevent really reviewed his material from some years ago.

According to Chamberlain (p.83, plates 150,151) this type cuphilt was more in accord with earlier forms and as always revealed Spain's inclination to adhere to traditional forms. It seems these were possibly in use much earlier than the 1798 benchmark, and probably contemporary with the M1728 forms which have become known as the 'bilbo' for thier bilobate shellguard basic in hilt. These 'bilbo' type swords were the form most well known in New Spain as far as military dragoon swords, while the cuphilt style broadswords were well known among infantry officers primarily. Naturally in frontier environments there were few set standards observed conclusively.

With reference to your observation on the Alamo

it is indeed unlikely this hilt form was present in the Mexican dragoon regiments there in 1836, there were possibly two, but offhand I can only think of one from Laredo. Mexico had won independance in 1821, and while still Spanish in basis as far as the regimental structure, arms were largely residual and imports.
The presence of the French cuirassier blade on this sword affirms it Continental provenance rather than Colonial.

These early Spanish swords, especially this particular 'M1798' is probably one of the most desirable and hardest to obtain examples of these 18th century cavalry Spanish cavalry swords as I have understood (when I tried to find one once!

. Bravo!!!!!! and what a wonderful Christmas gift........for me in just seeing it.

All the best,
Jim

cannonmn · 27th December 2011, 10:37 AM

I'm going to put a link back to this thread on my "regular" forum where I am the moderator, the Company of Military Historians Forum, because we have some folks interested in Spanish weapons there. I don't collect Spanish small arms (yet) myself but only artillery and I'm not sure where or if antique artillery is an appropriate subject here.

fernando · 27th December 2011, 03:42 PM

Hi Jim,
Thanks a lot for your input

.
Concerning the model number/year ...
This specific model appears in Barceló Rubi's ARMAMENTO PORTATIL ESPAÑOL, listed as model 1796. On a footnote he quotes Salas mentioning this sword in a rather resumed description without giving any measurements, and also Enrile, this one citing it as a disused model. But the same note adds however that the catalogues of Museo de Artilleria not only describe it (example #1726), but also refer to another one called model 1797 (example #1725), identical in all parts except the pommel which had a spherical shape.
Juan L.Calvó, in one article of his website CATALOGACION DE ARMAS, dedicated to Mounting Swords with Garrison of Barquilla con Vela, also consider this model as 1796.
When Calvó pretends that, according to his research, this model 1796 only appeared in service in 1803, he also reminds us that, the nomination of both fire and white arms being given according to the year of their introduction, like in France, only started being used in Spain in the kingdom of Fernando VII (so after 1808) and not before.
While i am expecting Don Juan Calvó to answer my email, telling me what he thonks about the blade being French, i will try and contact Juan José Perez for the same purpose.
Yours humbly

fernando · 27th December 2011, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

... I'm going to put a link back to this thread on my "regular" forum where I am the moderator, the Company of Military Historians Forum, because we have some folks interested in Spanish weapons there. ...

Just help yourself

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

... I'm not sure where or if antique artillery is an appropriate subject here...

Oh yes, why not ? As long as it is antique, let it come

26th December 2011, 02:59 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,672	The marks. . Attached Images

26th December 2011, 03:28 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,158	just a thought without any major evidence: during the penninsular war, nappy put one of his brothers on the spanish throne, all looked well for the frenchies. could they have supplied blades for the 'new' kings troops? joe napoleon, i gather, wasn't very popular. i'd like to think however that after the spanish army destroyed the grand armee of france at Bailén, killing about 6000 & capturing over 18000, including killing over 2500 cavalry during their vain attempt to escape, a lot of nice kleigenthal blades would have been available for conversion into preferred spanish forms. edited: interesting detail - the two screws holding the 'sail' to the rest of the guard are slotted on the outside, but peened on the inside. Last edited by kronckew; 26th December 2011 at 03:40 PM.

26th December 2011, 09:59 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,819	An absolutely magnificent acquisition Nando!!!!! and outstanding observations by Kronckew.There were indeed powerful French influences in play near the turn of the century, and actually the dragoon sword that was referred to as the M1799 was influenced by contemporary French sabres with the 'birdhead' type pommel/backstrap. This was the model that appeared in the 1803 text regulations. This particular form of cuphilt was I think as you mention possibly called a M1798, but it seems that its classification is a bit sketchy. I think that Juan Perez has more on that but I hevent really reviewed his material from some years ago. According to Chamberlain (p.83, plates 150,151) this type cuphilt was more in accord with earlier forms and as always revealed Spain's inclination to adhere to traditional forms. It seems these were possibly in use much earlier than the 1798 benchmark, and probably contemporary with the M1728 forms which have become known as the 'bilbo' for thier bilobate shellguard basic in hilt. These 'bilbo' type swords were the form most well known in New Spain as far as military dragoon swords, while the cuphilt style broadswords were well known among infantry officers primarily. Naturally in frontier environments there were few set standards observed conclusively. With reference to your observation on the Alamo it is indeed unlikely this hilt form was present in the Mexican dragoon regiments there in 1836, there were possibly two, but offhand I can only think of one from Laredo. Mexico had won independance in 1821, and while still Spanish in basis as far as the regimental structure, arms were largely residual and imports. The presence of the French cuirassier blade on this sword affirms it Continental provenance rather than Colonial. These early Spanish swords, especially this particular 'M1798' is probably one of the most desirable and hardest to obtain examples of these 18th century cavalry Spanish cavalry swords as I have understood (when I tried to find one once!. Bravo!!!!!! and what a wonderful Christmas gift........for me in just seeing it. All the best, Jim

27th December 2011, 10:37 AM	#5
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Nice! I'm going to put a link back to this thread on my "regular" forum where I am the moderator, the Company of Military Historians Forum, because we have some folks interested in Spanish weapons there. I don't collect Spanish small arms (yet) myself but only artillery and I'm not sure where or if antique artillery is an appropriate subject here. Last edited by cannonmn; 27th December 2011 at 11:07 AM. Reason: correction

26th December 2011, 02:58 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,672	A cavalry sword ... still in time for Christmas So this guy visited me last Saturday, to show me a sword belonging to a friend who wishes to get rid of it. I look at it and asked the price, but he says it must be me to offer. I advance with a figure and (through the phone) the owner immediately accepts ... as long as i pay in the moment ... in cash. This is why i went (again) beyond the expected Christmas budget and brought in this 'non looked for' addition to the house 'furniture'. According to the books this is what the Spaniards call a mounted sword for cavalry model 1796, with barquilla con vela (boat and sail) guard. Looking to the descriptions and images available, it is an exception that the grip copper wiring is 'caged', not by the usual rigid iron bars but also by twisted wiring, this in brass. However and for me the great novelty is that the blade is a typical French one, made in the famous Manufacture de Klingenthal. I can trace blades for these swords being imported from Solingen, but not from France; i am trying to get comments on this situation from a Spanish expert i know. The inscription on the blade spine shows it was made during the Imperial period and the inspection poinçons (MOUTON and BEAUMARETZ) confirm its production date, that of 1803. Although the sword model is named 1796, the date of 1803 was apparantly the first year of its appearance in the forces; the Spanish swords nomenclature functions that way. This blade its rather lengthy, with its 93 cms, same as those of Spanish standard for this model; only that the basic version is double edged and this Klingenthal specimen is single edged, with two wide fullers ... like those in curved sabres, but in this case straight, with only a vestigial curve near the tip. Please enjoy the pictures ... and post some comments, if you feel like . . Attached Images

27th December 2011, 03:42 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,672	Hi Jim, Thanks a lot for your input . Concerning the model number/year ... This specific model appears in Barceló Rubi's ARMAMENTO PORTATIL ESPAÑOL, listed as model 1796. On a footnote he quotes Salas mentioning this sword in a rather resumed description without giving any measurements, and also Enrile, this one citing it as a disused model. But the same note adds however that the catalogues of Museo de Artilleria not only describe it (example #1726), but also refer to another one called model 1797 (example #1725), identical in all parts except the pommel which had a spherical shape. Juan L.Calvó, in one article of his website CATALOGACION DE ARMAS, dedicated to Mounting Swords with Garrison of Barquilla con Vela, also consider this model as 1796. When Calvó pretends that, according to his research, this model 1796 only appeared in service in 1803, he also reminds us that, the nomination of both fire and white arms being given according to the year of their introduction, like in France, only started being used in Spain in the kingdom of Fernando VII (so after 1808) and not before. While i am expecting Don Juan Calvó to answer my email, telling me what he thonks about the blade being French, i will try and contact Juan José Perez for the same purpose. Yours humbly