Sea cow used for Iban hilts

VVV · 29th June 2011, 01:27 PM

I just had three Swedish and German blade smiths visiting me to study some of my Indonesian and Filipino blades. We had a great time and I also learned a lot on how some of my blades were made, why it has this or that shape and how some of the twist core and laminations are done etc.
One eye opener for me was that two of my Iban hilts are made of sea cow bone, not antler as I always considered all Dayak hilts to be made from without even reflecting about it. Actually when it was brought up it was easy to spot the other hilt as the colour is totally different than from the whiter antler hilts.
By coincidence (or maybe not?) both of them are Iban/Sea Dayak and both of them are on Langgai Tinggangs.
Maybe someone else will discover this material on their hilts too?

Michael

Royston · 29th June 2011, 01:47 PM

Michael

Very nice hilt. What tells you it is sea cow and not antler apart from the colour which could just be a factor of age and use ? or is this another definite / maybe scenario ?

I have something which looks similar, I always thought it was antler, but now you have me doubting

Regards
Roy

Maurice · 29th June 2011, 01:57 PM

Interesting Michael!

I noticed the different in colours of "antler" handles before, but I always thought it might be that the antler had different colours by itself?
I've seen them by very "teeth"white to very darkbrown. A friendcollector told me once that the whiter pieces have seen a lot more sun as the pieces with darker handles which probably were more used in the forests as in open area where sunlight was shining.....(but I don't know if this is true and what his source was for this statement).

Let's suppose this would be sea cow, from which part could it be than?
Is there also seen a difference in material/structure, besides of the colour?

Maurice

VVV · 29th June 2011, 02:51 PM

According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.
If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?).

Michael

VANDOO · 29th June 2011, 03:36 PM

VERY INTERESTING!! I HAVE ALWAYS ADDED THE FACTS ON THE SIZE OF SEA COW TEETH TO ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY OF THEIR BEING BIG ENOUGH TO MAKE IVORY KERIS HILTS OR MOST OTHER HILTS.
USING SEA COW BONE HAS NOT COME UP BEFORE BUT AS THE ANIMAL IS LARGE AND THE BONES LARGE ENOUGH AND DENSE ENOUGH FOR USE AS MANDAU HANDLES AND OTHER ITEMS AS WELL. THE SEA COW HAS BEEN HUNTED FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND IS STILL HUNTED IN MANY AREAS. TODAY IT IS HUNTED FOR FOOD IN MOST REGIONS WHERE IT OCCURS.
SO IT IS LIKELY THE BONE COULD BE USED AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND PERHAPS EASIER TO OBTAIN THAN DEER ANTLER FOR VILLAGES NEAR THE SEA AND RIVERS.
A LOCAL WHO HAS WORKED WITH ANTLER AND SEA COW WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BUT I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO AS ALL I HAVE STUDIED HAS BEEN FOSSILIZED. THANKS FOR THIS INTERESTING POST IT IS NEW KNOWLEGE TO ME.

Gavin Nugent · 29th June 2011, 03:41 PM

Given the nature of practices of old and the easy availability of bone, could these hilts not be Human bone

asomotif · 29th June 2011, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.

Hello Michael,

Can this smith send examples of seacow bone for comparisson ?
To me almost all bones are spongy inside. and colour can be influenced by a lot of things.
It would be interesting to know if there is a very clear difference in structure.

Ps. if he uses seacow bone, is this new or old ? aren't seacows protected species ?

Best regards,
Willem

David · 30th June 2011, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.
If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?).

Michael

I am not denying the possibility of this, however i'm not sure that i am prepared to accept this without question based on the identification od a single smith who has used the material in his own blades. As has been mentioned, just about all bone and antler has a spongy appearance on the interior and color is very dependent upon environmental circumstance.
Now, if you can get a marine biologist to make the same ID....

fearn · 30th June 2011, 10:37 PM

It being summer, I'd suggest taking this piece to the nearest large natural history museum or major university with a large zoology department. In your country, that is (see last paragraph). What you want is someone with a dugong skeleton on hand, to compare the piece with.

The issue is that most of it is so sculpted that it will be difficult to tell if it is a dugong vertebra (top of the back) or not, without that same vertebra to compare it in three dimensions (which willl present an opportunity for some great photos, incidentally). Oddly enough, museums tend to have such skeletons around, or to know who does have them. In my experience, if they're not too busy, they also enjoy puzzles like determining the source of a bone.

I'm a little puzzled, because dugong ribs (not vertebrae) have a reputation for being unusually dense. So far as I know, they act to ballast the animals in the water. Unfortunately, it's been handled so much that non-destructive DNA sampling will simply pick up human DNA.

As for legal status, yes, dugongs are in Appendix 1 of CITES, which is the most restrictive one.

Best,

F

VANDOO · 1st July 2011, 01:45 AM

IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE LIVE THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE IF THEY CATCH A SEA TURTLE OR SEA COW THE FAMILY EATS WELL. BUT MOSTLY THEY LIVE ON MORE SIMPLE OR BLAND FARE. I HAVE SEEN BOTH SEA TURTLE AND DUGONG SKELETONS IN TRASH HEAPS IN SEVERAL PLACES SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE.
I AM DEFINITELY FOR PROTECTING ENDANGERED SPECIES BUT I CAN'T BLAME A MAN LIVING IN A PRIMATIVE SOCIETY FOR TAKEING WHAT NATURE HAS BROUGHT HIM AND HIS ANCESTORS TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES. OFTEN THE LAW TAKES THIS INTO CONSIDERATION AND SOME TRIBES ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT AND TAKE A CERTIAN PROTECTED SPECIES IN REGULATED NUMBERS SO THE POPULATION IS NOT IMPACTED MUCH.
I DO HATE TO SEE SOMETHING USEFUL AND COOL THROWN INTO THE TRASH HEAP, OR LAYING BY THE ROADSIDE TO ROT AND WASTED BUT THATS THE LAW.

napoleon · 1st July 2011, 12:44 AM

thank you for sharing this,i will have to dig out my dyak swords and have a closer look,i never knew before reading this post that they used sea cow i also assumed it was stag they were made from . regards napoleon

Mytribalworld · 3rd July 2011, 11:16 AM

Hi Michael,

I strongly doubt the whole Steller seacow story:

A: Its an artic living animal and of course its p[ossible that someone exported the bones to Borneo but actually I don't see any reason for that.
It should make the handle extra expensive while dearantler has almost the same effect.

B: the structure /grain of your examples are following the fork shape while a handle from seacow most likely should have all the grain in one line.

C: dearantler can be enourmous various in quality and color and it looks to me that ( the Kenya like) is carved quite near the spongeous centre.
If you come closer to that centre you have indeed more "bonelike" structure on the surface.

D: What I doubt if a animistic Dayak would easily accept to take a "dead ?'' bone from an animal he doesn't know and carve from that a handle that he carry with him the whole day.
Antler has a special reason as its one of the "fastgrowers" ( like hair, nails,tusks, horn) and so "loaded" with "living power",sometimes also special kinds of wood ( specially shaped roots etc).

E: About that human bone handles, maybe they are human and seacow as well, carved from the bone from an anourmous fat lady.....

Arjan

VVV · 3rd July 2011, 11:41 AM

Arjan,

On Steller's sea cow he doesn't claim that mine are that, only sea cow. The dugong, the one of the living species closest to Steller's, is found outside Borneo.
I am not a "hilt-material guy" myself so I will probably put you into contact with one that is and then it would be interesting to read your conclusions.
Your words "animistic Dayak" reminded me of an idea I got when he first told me about it being sea cow (Alan, please don't read this because I am speculating based on documented folklore from neighbouring places

)
If you are in the forest you want to have hilt material made from wood or a forest animal not to disturb the ruler of the forest. But if you are planning to join a pirate trip on the sea the ruler of the sea would be very angry if you had a hilt from a land based animal on your sword and ship (wood seems to be neutral being found both in the forest and drifting around on the sea).
This corresponds to the beliefs of the Malay fishermen who even had a special language to avoid mentioning land based animals when on the sea not to disturb the ruler of the sea. One version is the one studied (Annandale 1903) in Patani and Pahang where for instance a horse was renamed chehweh dras (= fishing language prefix + fast) and a buddhist monk chehweh kuning (prefix + yellow).

Michael

Mytribalworld · 3rd July 2011, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Arjan,

On Steller's sea cow he doesn't claim that mine are that, only sea cow. The dugong, the one of the living species closest to Steller's, is found outside Borneo.
I am not a "hilt-material guy" myself so I will probably put you into contact with one that is and then it would be interesting to read your conclusions.
Your words "animistic Dayak" reminded me of an idea I got when he first told me about it being sea cow (Alan, please don't read this because I am speculating based on documented folklore from neighbouring places

)
If you are in the forest you want to have hilt material made from wood or a forest animal not to disturb the ruler of the forest. But if you are planning to join a pirate trip on the sea the ruler of the sea would be very angry if you had a hilt from a land based animal on your sword and ship (wood seems to be neutral being found both in the forest and drifting around on the sea).
This corresponds to the beliefs of the Malay fishermen who even had a special language to avoid mentioning land based animals when on the sea not to disturb the ruler of the sea. One version is the one studied (Annandale 1903) in Patani and Pahang where for instance a horse was renamed chehweh dras (= fishing language prefix + fast) and a buddhist monk chehweh kuning (prefix + yellow).

Michael

But that should include that most seadayaks never travelled the sea with their deerantler handled swords and that those with the seacow handled sword never saw their wife and kids on the land.
If I must choose between an angry sea and an angry wife...... Hmmmmm....

VVV · 3rd July 2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

But that should include that most seadayaks never travelled the sea with their deerantler handled swords and that those with the seacow handled sword never saw their wife and kids on the land.
If I must choose between an angry sea and an angry wife...... Hmmmmm....

Ha, ha, ha, not quite.
Please note that I only found sea cow hilts on the langgai tinggang (= sea dayak war swords), not the ilang (both war and utility swords).
In a way the hypothesis might also explain why you find some very high status parang with wooden hilts.
And as usual with folklore it can be quite local, just a small area. It might even be a requirement from the ship owners according to their beliefs.
But anyway I will try to find time later tonight to check some of my articles and books on Iban customs to see if I find something more about customs at sea.

Michael

VANDOO · 3rd July 2011, 05:08 PM

IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY ANYTHING OTHER THAN DUGONG BONES WOULD BE USED AS THEY ARE THE ONLY MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP OF ANIMALS IN THE REGION AND WERE KNOWN AND HUNTED FOR FOOD. STELLER SEA COW BONES WOULD STILL BE AVAILABLE IN SOME NORTHERN LOCATIONS IN OLD TRASH HEAPS NEAR CAMPS OF WHALERS AND ESKIMOS. THE BONE WOULD NOT HAVE FOSSILIZED AND MAY STILL BE USED BY LOCAL TRIBES??
THE STELLER SEA COW BONES MIGHT BE A BIT LARGE FOR MANDAU HANDLES ANYWAY AS ADULTS WERE AROUND 30 FEET LONG. THERE ARE STILL REPORTED SIGHTINGS IN THE REGIONS WHERE THEY USED TO LIVE BUT NO CONFIRMATION OF ANY SURVIVORS SO FAR.
STELLAR SEA COW SKELETON

Mytribalworld · 3rd July 2011, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Ha, ha, ha, not quite.
Please note that I only found sea cow hilts on the langgai tinggang (= sea dayak war swords), not the ilang (both war and utility swords).
In a way the hypothesis might also explain why you find some very high status parang with wooden hilts.
And as usual with folklore it can be quite local, just a small area. It might even be a requirement from the ship owners according to their beliefs.
But anyway I will try to find time later tonight to check some of my articles and books on Iban customs to see if I find something more about customs at sea.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I'm curious what you will find, I can image that Malay shippers had such requirements but I wonder if already we have problems with seeing the difference the shipper would and if the dayak would tell him the truth.

If the dayak themself had such requirements, I wonder how they should do that if transport on Borneo is mostly over the river.
should they make the difference between river and sea ? ( note that the villages in many cases of the big headhuntingraids where attacked from the sea and following the river upstreams)

other thing is ..do you have a pic of the whole Langgai with that Kenya like handle ? it would be interesting

Arjan

29th June 2011, 01:27 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Sea cow used for Iban hilts I just had three Swedish and German blade smiths visiting me to study some of my Indonesian and Filipino blades. We had a great time and I also learned a lot on how some of my blades were made, why it has this or that shape and how some of the twist core and laminations are done etc. One eye opener for me was that two of my Iban hilts are made of sea cow bone, not antler as I always considered all Dayak hilts to be made from without even reflecting about it. Actually when it was brought up it was easy to spot the other hilt as the colour is totally different than from the whiter antler hilts. By coincidence (or maybe not?) both of them are Iban/Sea Dayak and both of them are on Langgai Tinggangs. Maybe someone else will discover this material on their hilts too? Michael Attached Images

29th June 2011, 03:41 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Given the nature Given the nature of practices of old and the easy availability of bone, could these hilts not be Human bone

1st July 2011, 12:44 AM	#11
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	sea cow hilts thank you for sharing this,i will have to dig out my dyak swords and have a closer look,i never knew before reading this post that they used sea cow i also assumed it was stag they were made from . regards napoleon

3rd July 2011, 05:08 PM	#16
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY ANYTHING OTHER THAN DUGONG BONES WOULD BE USED AS THEY ARE THE ONLY MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP OF ANIMALS IN THE REGION AND WERE KNOWN AND HUNTED FOR FOOD. STELLER SEA COW BONES WOULD STILL BE AVAILABLE IN SOME NORTHERN LOCATIONS IN OLD TRASH HEAPS NEAR CAMPS OF WHALERS AND ESKIMOS. THE BONE WOULD NOT HAVE FOSSILIZED AND MAY STILL BE USED BY LOCAL TRIBES?? THE STELLER SEA COW BONES MIGHT BE A BIT LARGE FOR MANDAU HANDLES ANYWAY AS ADULTS WERE AROUND 30 FEET LONG. THERE ARE STILL REPORTED SIGHTINGS IN THE REGIONS WHERE THEY USED TO LIVE BUT NO CONFIRMATION OF ANY SURVIVORS SO FAR. STELLAR SEA COW SKELETON Attached Images

29th June 2011, 01:47 PM	#2
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Michael Very nice hilt. What tells you it is sea cow and not antler apart from the colour which could just be a factor of age and use ? or is this another definite / maybe scenario ? I have something which looks similar, I always thought it was antler, but now you have me doubting Regards Roy

29th June 2011, 01:57 PM	#3
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Interesting Michael! I noticed the different in colours of "antler" handles before, but I always thought it might be that the antler had different colours by itself? I've seen them by very "teeth"white to very darkbrown. A friendcollector told me once that the whiter pieces have seen a lot more sun as the pieces with darker handles which probably were more used in the forests as in open area where sunlight was shining.....(but I don't know if this is true and what his source was for this statement). Let's suppose this would be sea cow, from which part could it be than? Is there also seen a difference in material/structure, besides of the colour? Maurice

29th June 2011, 02:51 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow. If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?). Michael

29th June 2011, 03:36 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	VERY INTERESTING!! I HAVE ALWAYS ADDED THE FACTS ON THE SIZE OF SEA COW TEETH TO ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY OF THEIR BEING BIG ENOUGH TO MAKE IVORY KERIS HILTS OR MOST OTHER HILTS. USING SEA COW BONE HAS NOT COME UP BEFORE BUT AS THE ANIMAL IS LARGE AND THE BONES LARGE ENOUGH AND DENSE ENOUGH FOR USE AS MANDAU HANDLES AND OTHER ITEMS AS WELL. THE SEA COW HAS BEEN HUNTED FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND IS STILL HUNTED IN MANY AREAS. TODAY IT IS HUNTED FOR FOOD IN MOST REGIONS WHERE IT OCCURS. SO IT IS LIKELY THE BONE COULD BE USED AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND PERHAPS EASIER TO OBTAIN THAN DEER ANTLER FOR VILLAGES NEAR THE SEA AND RIVERS. A LOCAL WHO HAS WORKED WITH ANTLER AND SEA COW WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BUT I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO AS ALL I HAVE STUDIED HAS BEEN FOSSILIZED. THANKS FOR THIS INTERESTING POST IT IS NEW KNOWLEGE TO ME.

30th June 2011, 10:37 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	It being summer, I'd suggest taking this piece to the nearest large natural history museum or major university with a large zoology department. In your country, that is (see last paragraph). What you want is someone with a dugong skeleton on hand, to compare the piece with. The issue is that most of it is so sculpted that it will be difficult to tell if it is a dugong vertebra (top of the back) or not, without that same vertebra to compare it in three dimensions (which willl present an opportunity for some great photos, incidentally). Oddly enough, museums tend to have such skeletons around, or to know who does have them. In my experience, if they're not too busy, they also enjoy puzzles like determining the source of a bone. I'm a little puzzled, because dugong ribs (not vertebrae) have a reputation for being unusually dense. So far as I know, they act to ballast the animals in the water. Unfortunately, it's been handled so much that non-destructive DNA sampling will simply pick up human DNA. As for legal status, yes, dugongs are in Appendix 1 of CITES, which is the most restrictive one. Best, F

1st July 2011, 01:45 AM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE LIVE THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE IF THEY CATCH A SEA TURTLE OR SEA COW THE FAMILY EATS WELL. BUT MOSTLY THEY LIVE ON MORE SIMPLE OR BLAND FARE. I HAVE SEEN BOTH SEA TURTLE AND DUGONG SKELETONS IN TRASH HEAPS IN SEVERAL PLACES SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE. I AM DEFINITELY FOR PROTECTING ENDANGERED SPECIES BUT I CAN'T BLAME A MAN LIVING IN A PRIMATIVE SOCIETY FOR TAKEING WHAT NATURE HAS BROUGHT HIM AND HIS ANCESTORS TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES. OFTEN THE LAW TAKES THIS INTO CONSIDERATION AND SOME TRIBES ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT AND TAKE A CERTIAN PROTECTED SPECIES IN REGULATED NUMBERS SO THE POPULATION IS NOT IMPACTED MUCH. I DO HATE TO SEE SOMETHING USEFUL AND COOL THROWN INTO THE TRASH HEAP, OR LAYING BY THE ROADSIDE TO ROT AND WASTED BUT THATS THE LAW.

3rd July 2011, 11:16 AM	#12
Mytribalworld Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 400	Hi Michael, I strongly doubt the whole Steller seacow story: A: Its an artic living animal and of course its p[ossible that someone exported the bones to Borneo but actually I don't see any reason for that. It should make the handle extra expensive while dearantler has almost the same effect. B: the structure /grain of your examples are following the fork shape while a handle from seacow most likely should have all the grain in one line. C: dearantler can be enourmous various in quality and color and it looks to me that ( the Kenya like) is carved quite near the spongeous centre. If you come closer to that centre you have indeed more "bonelike" structure on the surface. D: What I doubt if a animistic Dayak would easily accept to take a "dead ?'' bone from an animal he doesn't know and carve from that a handle that he carry with him the whole day. Antler has a special reason as its one of the "fastgrowers" ( like hair, nails,tusks, horn) and so "loaded" with "living power",sometimes also special kinds of wood ( specially shaped roots etc). E: About that human bone handles, maybe they are human and seacow as well, carved from the bone from an anourmous fat lady..... Arjan

3rd July 2011, 11:41 AM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Arjan, On Steller's sea cow he doesn't claim that mine are that, only sea cow. The dugong, the one of the living species closest to Steller's, is found outside Borneo. I am not a "hilt-material guy" myself so I will probably put you into contact with one that is and then it would be interesting to read your conclusions. Your words "animistic Dayak" reminded me of an idea I got when he first told me about it being sea cow (Alan, please don't read this because I am speculating based on documented folklore from neighbouring places ) If you are in the forest you want to have hilt material made from wood or a forest animal not to disturb the ruler of the forest. But if you are planning to join a pirate trip on the sea the ruler of the sea would be very angry if you had a hilt from a land based animal on your sword and ship (wood seems to be neutral being found both in the forest and drifting around on the sea). This corresponds to the beliefs of the Malay fishermen who even had a special language to avoid mentioning land based animals when on the sea not to disturb the ruler of the sea. One version is the one studied (Annandale 1903) in Patani and Pahang where for instance a horse was renamed chehweh dras (= fishing language prefix + fast) and a buddhist monk chehweh kuning (prefix + yellow). Michael