Persian or Ottoman Lance ?

[DavidFriedman]

Greetings fellow collectors,
I was wondering if anyone may be able to shed some light on this 20 inch gold damascened lancehead.

Based on its form, does it seem more prone to have been Persian, Syrian, Ottoman, or even Mughal?

The closest example I could find was an old pre Qajar Persian one.

It is very solid, not flexible or delicate, like some of the thinner Wootz Qajar lances. This is pointy and made for serious battle play.

Any thoughts would be most truly appreciated.

Thanks.

[ariel]

It is Indian, more likely Mughal, 18-19 century. A nice one.
Did it come together with the katar?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

It is Indian, more likely Mughal, 18-19 century. A nice one.
Did it come together with the katar?

Thanks for the info. Very interesting. Are there examples of similar spear heads that have "Indian (Mughal)" undoubted provenance?

[DavidFriedman]

Thanks Ariel,
No, the Katar I purchased several years ago from Italy. A little worn out, but a large strong specimen.

May I ask what characteristics point to Mughal for the lance head? I’ve never seen a lance of quite this form before.

Cheers,

David

Originally Posted by ariel

It is Indian, more likely Mughal, 18-19 century. A nice one.
Did it come together with the katar?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

May I ask what characteristics point to Mughal for the lance head? I’ve never seen a lance of quite this form before.

Cheers,

David

If you google “ indian spear images ” or mughal spear images” ( or something in that mode) you will find a lot of similar ones. Old site of Oriental_Arms had many. Unfortunately, the new one shortened their archives significantly.

As customary for all handmade weapons, there were some differences between items, but generally, the narrow spearhead and koftgari decoration tell the story.Metropolitan museum has several. Here is just one example.

[DavidFriedman]

Hi, thanks Ariel.

The lance in the picture looks very similar in form to a Persian Qajar lance I used to own. Thinner blade and less diamondesque in cross section profile than this current one I have. The Qajar ones I find have the thin blades, reinforced edge, and smaller ball section between collar and blade.

My one has a solid ball that could act as a small mace it’s so hefty, even though small.

It could well be Mughal, but the one in the picture you show, I am convinced is a Qajar lance, possibly used by Sufi’s, or at least I saw an old photo of a Sufi carrying a similar styled one in your picture.

If I’m wrong, I’m definitely open to correction. Thanks.

Cheers,

David

Originally Posted by ariel

If you google “ indian spear images ” or mughal spear images” ( or something in that mode) you will find a lot of similar ones. Old site of Oriental_Arms had many. Unfortunately, the new one shortened their archives significantly.

As customary for all handmade weapons, there were some differences between items, but generally, the narrow spearhead and koftgari decoration tell the story.Metropolitan museum has several. Here is just one example.

[ariel]

Well, “The Met” attributed it to North India, and it came from the famous collection of Giovanni Morosini who obviously knew where it came from.
As I mentioned before, virtually all Indo-Persian lances have rather similar constructions due to their very well-defined function: cavalry use , lancing the opponent. We have to rely on their decorative techniques and first and foremost on their provenance and attribution by superspecialists. Not having the documents of the former and not being the latter, I have to rely on their collective conclusion. This is in part why I said “ more likely”.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Hi, thanks Ariel.

The lance in the picture looks very similar in form to a Persian Qajar lance I used to own. Thinner blade and less diamondesque in cross section profile than this current one I have. The Qajar ones I find have the thin blades, reinforced edge, and smaller ball section between collar and blade.

Hello David.

I fully agree with your opinion. I think this is a Persian spear both in form and decor. The website of the Metropolitan Museum of Art often comes across errors ...

Dmitry

[ariel]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Hi, thanks Ariel.

The lance in the picture looks very similar in form to a Persian Qajar lance I used to own. Thinner blade and less diamondesque in cross section profile than this current one I have. The Qajar ones I find have the thin blades, reinforced edge, and smaller ball section between collar and blade.

My one has a solid ball that could act as a small mace it’s so hefty, even though small.

It could well be Mughal, but the one in the picture you show, I am convinced is a Qajar lance, possibly used by Sufi’s, or at least I saw an old photo of a Sufi carrying a similar styled one in your picture.

If I’m wrong, I’m definitely open to correction. Thanks.

Cheers,

David

David,
By the 17-18 centuries Mughal armourers produced items identical in quality to the Persian ones. Moreover, there was a strong Sufi minority among the Mughal court and intellectuals. Thus the quality of the execution and religious bents cannot help very much.
I found the old Artzi's site and here are several examples of N. Indian lances from his archives + the Met example. As you see, there are major differences between all of them due to different workshops/masters.
You now have 3 opinions: Mahratt's ( Persia" and Artzi's/Met's ( N. India).
You can choose either. That's the frequent name of the game in our hobby:-)