Sindhi helmet with face guard

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2005, 07:26 AM

Michel,
Last week the thread of fantastic photos headed 'oriental beauties' included a beautiful helmet with face mask with parenthesis and question mark 'Sind'?

In Haider, "Arms & Armour of Muslim India" p.103 this exact helmet is illustrated and credited it National Museum, Krakow. It is identified as noted as Sindhi , late 18th c. Apparantly this type helmet is typical in Sind, with the full metal mask of of course higher quality, and usually a triangular mail flap covering the face.
In "Saladin and the Saracens" by D. Nicolle p.8, I noticed a similar concept helmet in a line drawing with conical shape and a detachable metal face plate, shown as Qipchaq c.12-13th c. (State Historical Museum, Moscow).
It seems that these face covers have earlier associations in 6th century Byzantine examples. I'm sure there are others in other periods and spheres as well, but thought I would share these findings for now.

I wanted to put this on a new thread just for focus.

All best regards,
Jim

Radu Transylvanicus · 9th May 2005, 07:35 AM

And the Normans and the Vikings as well had somehow similar helmets ... but yes it is a good chance that the pre Byzantine Greek archaic helmets are the source (remember those Corinthian and "hoplite" helmets?) ... Not necesarilly with detachable masks but it if I dig some bibliography maybe I will find that too ...
Remember that "boomerang" theory comming from ancient Greece to Hindoostan ( kopis - sossun pata - khukri - yathagan ) ...
Back in Romania in the Orthodox (Eastearn) iconography there are many examples of a half sphere sometimes conical helmets with nasal (metal strip) protection and chainmail but they are definatelly not singular examples , however not detachable masks that I can remember ....
However you fueled me a great ideea about posting a helmet from ancient Romania ( Dacia ) I had the privilege of examining close , a national treasure belonging to local Thracs but I will open a separate thread on that so we stay focus on your thematic but yes, the Forum does need more talk about helmets and head protection .. Good catch, Jim !
Could this type of ancient Greek helmet be the part of the evolutionary course to the "Helmet of Sind" ?

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2005, 04:56 PM

Excellent Radu!!!
Thank you for the follow up as I really wanted to pursue the ancestry of these faceguarded helmets, and the examples you have cited are right on target. Yes, I think it would be very likely that early Greek influence would be a good source as the presence of Alexander in these regions left so many profound influences in many aspects of the culture.
Nicely done, and very much appreciated!!

All the best,
Jim

tom hyle · 9th May 2005, 06:39 PM

The Latin cavalry in the early centuries CE used a helmet with a detachable or hinged face-shaped face mask. Such a helmet is seen in the movie "Gladiator" in an arena combat situation, though I don't know the specific authenticity of the mechanism, etc. (one of my brothers has made quite a study of it though....)
Then there's the Japanese menpo (mempo?); masks that I think originally laced to the head, under the helmet, and only later to the helmet itself?

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2005, 06:56 PM

Hi Tom, Thanks for bringing those up. I thought "Gladiator" was a pretty fantastic movie, and I felt like I was prompted to learn a lot by it as I had never really focused much on classical period history. Sure would like to hear more on your brothers findings on these.
All the best,
Jim

tom hyle · 9th May 2005, 07:01 PM

I do really miss being able to email forum threads to people......I'm not missing something, am I? The new forum can't do that, right? My most recommended feature for a website if you want word of mouth type spread; emailability of pages, though naked ladies seem to work out for a lot of them.....

I've got to try to catch up with my brother on a few of these questions......after all I do have flat-rate long-distance.......

9th May 2005, 07:26 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Sindhi helmet with face guard Michel, Last week the thread of fantastic photos headed 'oriental beauties' included a beautiful helmet with face mask with parenthesis and question mark 'Sind'? In Haider, "Arms & Armour of Muslim India" p.103 this exact helmet is illustrated and credited it National Museum, Krakow. It is identified as noted as Sindhi , late 18th c. Apparantly this type helmet is typical in Sind, with the full metal mask of of course higher quality, and usually a triangular mail flap covering the face. In "Saladin and the Saracens" by D. Nicolle p.8, I noticed a similar concept helmet in a line drawing with conical shape and a detachable metal face plate, shown as Qipchaq c.12-13th c. (State Historical Museum, Moscow). It seems that these face covers have earlier associations in 6th century Byzantine examples. I'm sure there are others in other periods and spheres as well, but thought I would share these findings for now. I wanted to put this on a new thread just for focus. All best regards, Jim

9th May 2005, 07:35 AM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	And the Normans and the Vikings as well had somehow similar helmets ... but yes it is a good chance that the pre Byzantine Greek archaic helmets are the source (remember those Corinthian and "hoplite" helmets?) ... Not necesarilly with detachable masks but it if I dig some bibliography maybe I will find that too ... Remember that "boomerang" theory comming from ancient Greece to Hindoostan ( kopis - sossun pata - khukri - yathagan ) ... Back in Romania in the Orthodox (Eastearn) iconography there are many examples of a half sphere sometimes conical helmets with nasal (metal strip) protection and chainmail but they are definatelly not singular examples , however not detachable masks that I can remember .... However you fueled me a great ideea about posting a helmet from ancient Romania ( Dacia ) I had the privilege of examining close , a national treasure belonging to local Thracs but I will open a separate thread on that so we stay focus on your thematic but yes, the Forum does need more talk about helmets and head protection .. Good catch, Jim ! Could this type of ancient Greek helmet be the part of the evolutionary course to the "Helmet of Sind" ? Attached Images Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 9th May 2005 at 09:55 AM.

9th May 2005, 04:56 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Excellent Radu!!! Thank you for the follow up as I really wanted to pursue the ancestry of these faceguarded helmets, and the examples you have cited are right on target. Yes, I think it would be very likely that early Greek influence would be a good source as the presence of Alexander in these regions left so many profound influences in many aspects of the culture. Nicely done, and very much appreciated!! All the best, Jim

9th May 2005, 06:39 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The Latin cavalry in the early centuries CE used a helmet with a detachable or hinged face-shaped face mask. Such a helmet is seen in the movie "Gladiator" in an arena combat situation, though I don't know the specific authenticity of the mechanism, etc. (one of my brothers has made quite a study of it though....) Then there's the Japanese menpo (mempo?); masks that I think originally laced to the head, under the helmet, and only later to the helmet itself?

9th May 2005, 06:56 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi Tom, Thanks for bringing those up. I thought "Gladiator" was a pretty fantastic movie, and I felt like I was prompted to learn a lot by it as I had never really focused much on classical period history. Sure would like to hear more on your brothers findings on these. All the best, Jim

9th May 2005, 07:01 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I do really miss being able to email forum threads to people......I'm not missing something, am I? The new forum can't do that, right? My most recommended feature for a website if you want word of mouth type spread; emailability of pages, though naked ladies seem to work out for a lot of them..... I've got to try to catch up with my brother on a few of these questions......after all I do have flat-rate long-distance.......