Cage stirrups Origin ... age?

Cerjak · 19th January 2013, 06:00 PM

I just receive those 2 differents stirrups
Would anybody be able here to comment about it ,
age origin ? Military stirrups ?
Any comment will be welcome

Cerjak

fernando · 20th January 2013, 01:48 PM

Nice things; looking somehow like the bar guard of certain swords

.
XIX century ?
Do we have members familiar with the stirrup area ?

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2013, 09:12 PM

I have no particular knowledge on stirrups, but think Fernando's assessment of 19th century most likely, and these are not military. If noticed between the two, the shape of the fixture to affix the strap is different, and most importantly the design within the footplate is quite different. It almost would suggest the nature of cattle brands or ranch insignia, and the developed basket guard may suggest Spanish influence, as these kinds of guards were popular in New Spain in the early 19th century on what became known as 'round tang' espada anchas.
The use of brands were common in Spanish estancias in the Southwest in these times, and perhaps these designs could be associated? The only reference I have to listings of these is unfortunately not at hand, but as always we hope some of the countless readers out there who do have such knowledge might be compelled to share this information.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2013, 03:14 AM

According to Stone's pages of examples (p.585, #10) a similar form with the basket/cage type toe protection is identified as German, 17th c. (with question mark suggesting the date uncertain). As far as I can see with all the stirrup forms I have found, the 'German' attributed ones are the only ones with this 'caged' feature.

While obviously the provenance of these, which we of course do not know, would certainly lend to better classification, if they are from Europe then we might presume the German origin.

If these might be from the U.S. as I suggested earlier due to the geometrics in the footplates resembling cattle brands, I would note that German presence here in the 1840s and 50s was quite prevalent, especially here in Texas. If that were the case, these could be 'western' equivilants of the earlier German forms.

fernando · 21st January 2013, 07:04 PM

Hi Jim,
Indeed Stone puts the question mark on the origin and not on the age, i would say

.
Despite the caged style of Stone's example inspiring the provenance of the discussed examples, there are in these units multiple allegories to the wealthy rural ambiance.
The main suspension arch resembles that of a horse shoe, the front branches look like those of a sword guard (as already approached) and the foot plates seem to be featuring cattle irons or Ranch insignia, as you have well put.
Somehow this feature set doesn't suggest Germanic provenance ... but i know nothing

Cerjak · 21st January 2013, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

According to Stone's pages of examples (p.585, #10) a similar form with the basket/cage type toe protection is identified as German, 17th c. (with question mark suggesting the date uncertain). As far as I can see with all the stirrup forms I have found, the 'German' attributed ones are the only ones with this 'caged' feature.

While obviously the provenance of these, which we of course do not know, would certainly lend to better classification, if they are from Europe then we might presume the German origin.

If these might be from the U.S. as I suggested earlier due to the geometrics in the footplates resembling cattle brands, I would note that German presence here in the 1840s and 50s was quite prevalent, especially here in Texas. If that were the case, these could be 'western' equivilants of the earlier German forms.

Dear Jim
Many thanks for your answer ,I don't think that those stirrups have crossed the Atlantic it is my guess .
I have ound one pics from A Pair of Georgian Steel Cage Stirrups for Cavalry but the construction is really different and seems younger .
Do you have the possibility to post this picture from Stone's pages of examples (p.585, #10)

Best regards
Cerjak

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2013, 03:54 PM

Fernando, you are far too modest, actually your assessments and observations are of course always soundly placed, and I very much like your wording in noting the rural ambience on these stirrups. I agree that the Stone caption suggests the German provenance somewhat questionable, and offers little support for my speculation, but I thought I would add it anyway for the sake of outward thinking.
I still hold to the idea that these footplates are compellingly similar to ranch and cattle brands and logos.

Cerjak, outstanding comparison you have found with the Georgian pair of stirrups! and reflects that sort of neoclassicism indeed. As you have noted these seem in remarkable condition, but traditional forms extended use far beyond changes in the regular military units in the yeomanry regiments.
I would note here that my original suggestion of influence on 'western' trappings from German sources could equally apply to English instances.
England was a prolific supplier of goods in addition to the obvious cultural influences to America. It is interesting that even the majority of 'Bowie' knives in the 19th century were Sheffield produced, as were many guns and other items which were prevalent in the 'wild west'.

I just wanted to thank you guys for the very kind responses, especially in the personal recognition toward my observations. It is apparantly a waning courtesy in altogether too many instances on other venues, and as I admit to being a bit old fashioned, it is very much appreciated. I will see if I can get a scan of the Stone image pending some technical difficulties with scanning here.

All the very best,
Jim

19th January 2013, 06:00 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Cage stirrups Origin ... age? I just receive those 2 differents stirrups Would anybody be able here to comment about it , age origin ? Military stirrups ? Any comment will be welcome Cerjak Attached Images

20th January 2013, 01:48 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Nice things; looking somehow like the bar guard of certain swords . XIX century ? Do we have members familiar with the stirrup area ?

20th January 2013, 09:12 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I have no particular knowledge on stirrups, but think Fernando's assessment of 19th century most likely, and these are not military. If noticed between the two, the shape of the fixture to affix the strap is different, and most importantly the design within the footplate is quite different. It almost would suggest the nature of cattle brands or ranch insignia, and the developed basket guard may suggest Spanish influence, as these kinds of guards were popular in New Spain in the early 19th century on what became known as 'round tang' espada anchas. The use of brands were common in Spanish estancias in the Southwest in these times, and perhaps these designs could be associated? The only reference I have to listings of these is unfortunately not at hand, but as always we hope some of the countless readers out there who do have such knowledge might be compelled to share this information.

21st January 2013, 03:14 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	According to Stone's pages of examples (p.585, #10) a similar form with the basket/cage type toe protection is identified as German, 17th c. (with question mark suggesting the date uncertain). As far as I can see with all the stirrup forms I have found, the 'German' attributed ones are the only ones with this 'caged' feature. While obviously the provenance of these, which we of course do not know, would certainly lend to better classification, if they are from Europe then we might presume the German origin. If these might be from the U.S. as I suggested earlier due to the geometrics in the footplates resembling cattle brands, I would note that German presence here in the 1840s and 50s was quite prevalent, especially here in Texas. If that were the case, these could be 'western' equivilants of the earlier German forms.

21st January 2013, 07:04 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim, Indeed Stone puts the question mark on the origin and not on the age, i would say . Despite the caged style of Stone's example inspiring the provenance of the discussed examples, there are in these units multiple allegories to the wealthy rural ambiance. The main suspension arch resembles that of a horse shoe, the front branches look like those of a sword guard (as already approached) and the foot plates seem to be featuring cattle irons or Ranch insignia, as you have well put. Somehow this feature set doesn't suggest Germanic provenance ... but i know nothing

22nd January 2013, 03:54 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Fernando, you are far too modest, actually your assessments and observations are of course always soundly placed, and I very much like your wording in noting the rural ambience on these stirrups. I agree that the Stone caption suggests the German provenance somewhat questionable, and offers little support for my speculation, but I thought I would add it anyway for the sake of outward thinking. I still hold to the idea that these footplates are compellingly similar to ranch and cattle brands and logos. Cerjak, outstanding comparison you have found with the Georgian pair of stirrups! and reflects that sort of neoclassicism indeed. As you have noted these seem in remarkable condition, but traditional forms extended use far beyond changes in the regular military units in the yeomanry regiments. I would note here that my original suggestion of influence on 'western' trappings from German sources could equally apply to English instances. England was a prolific supplier of goods in addition to the obvious cultural influences to America. It is interesting that even the majority of 'Bowie' knives in the 19th century were Sheffield produced, as were many guns and other items which were prevalent in the 'wild west'. I just wanted to thank you guys for the very kind responses, especially in the personal recognition toward my observations. It is apparantly a waning courtesy in altogether too many instances on other venues, and as I admit to being a bit old fashioned, it is very much appreciated. I will see if I can get a scan of the Stone image pending some technical difficulties with scanning here. All the very best, Jim