Figural hilts of 1 character?!

erikscollectables · 14th May 2009, 08:07 PM

This is an extention of the jawa demam and raksasa discussions going on.
Here are four figural hilts that I used to call raksasa as in the flesh eating demon from the ramayana.

They have a series of characteristics that can be found in each one (and one small difference which makes two subtypes to me)

Who can help specify/identify the specific character?

Front of head with a diadem
Mouth with stylized fangs
Beaklike nose with a sort of lip?
To the side of the head some sort of hairy/flowerlike extension of the hair.
Clearly identifyable hands and knees both with bracelets
Position of hand on knees (right hand sideways to the knee, left hand over the knee
Position of fingers (right hand with pinkee to the belly, left hand with the thumb to the belly)
Sitting on a throne of leaves (tumbal?)
Necklace type A ending flowerlike type B clearly snakelike
Long hair stretching unto the back

Well that was all I could find and here are the photo's!

erikscollectables · 14th May 2009, 08:34 PM

It seems I can answer my own question.
Just reread Jenssen krisdisk chapter 3 and 4 what I should have done before!

He describes this character as Bima, the fiercest of the Pandawa brothers.

Are there other opinions on this then what Jenssen wrote?
If there are other sources I can read about this please let me know!

Regards, Erik

And the thing aroudn the ear is called sumping ron which is a leaflike jewellery!

David · 14th May 2009, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

He describes this character as Bima, the fiercest of the Pandawa brothers.
Are there other opinions on this then what Jenssen wrote?

hmmmm, Bima was supposedly the son of Bayu, the wind god, so the first question that crosses my mind is why would he then be depicted with fangs?

Just because it's in a book or on a CD doesn't necessarily make it so.

Sajen · 14th May 2009, 10:02 PM

Hello Erik,
first off all i want to tell you that there are more different "subtypes" of this form. I have 9 handles of this form in my collection and there are two which have a garuda mungkur in the back, one have a diadem in front of the head and two I have where the hands are floral carved. When I find the time I will take some pictures to show this.
Second I have to agree with David. Jenssen don't give a source from where he know that this is Bima for sure.
sajen

erikscollectables · 15th May 2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Erik,
first off all i want to tell you that there are more different "subtypes" of this form. I have 9 handles of this form in my collection and there are two which have a garuda mungkur in the back, one have a diadem in front of the head and two I have where the hands are floral carved. When I find the time I will take some pictures to show this.
Second I have to agree with David. Jenssen don't give a source from where he know that this is Bima for sure.
sajen

Hi Sajen,

I totally agree there are more subtypes of this type of hilt I tried to find as many specimens of this specifice type without all the exceptions.

Would love to see the types you have.

In chapter 3 and 4 Jenssen describes at least 6 subtypes.
the one with the garuda mungkur not I think, what is it?

I have another strange version I will include here but it certainly is not the same as the mentioned Bima figural hilt. It is a crossed arms version with a snake on the back. Maybe links to the type you mention? Not so far away from a jawa demam, very old and quite worn.

Regards, Erik

Sajen · 15th May 2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Hi Sajen,

I totally agree there are more subtypes of this type of hilt I tried to find as many specimens of this specifice type without all the exceptions.

Would love to see the types you have.

In chapter 3 and 4 Jenssen describes at least 6 subtypes.
the one with the garuda mungkur not I think, what is it?

I have another strange version I will include here but it certainly is not the same as the mentioned Bima figural hilt. It is a crossed arms version with a snake on the back. Maybe links to the type you mention? Not so far away from a jawa demam, very old and quite worn.

Regards, Erik

Hello Erik,

yes this seems to be a garuda mungkur. Maybe later at the eving I will post some pictures.
sajen

Marcokeris · 15th May 2009, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

.....In chapter 3 and 4 Jenssen describes at least 6 subtypes.
the one with the garuda mungkur not I think, what is it?

Regards, Erik

Hallo Erik
On the back a Garuda mungkur
Marco

David · 14th May 2009, 10:02 PM

...then again, i believe that Bima has been depicted with a moustache, so maybe those "fangs" aren't fangs afterall.

erikscollectables · 15th May 2009, 06:57 PM

David and others,

What are the opinions on Jenssen?
To me (only 2 years interested in the subject and with only a small library) it seems to be the best resource in a language I can read.
That does not make everything in the book true of course but a good basis for at least an hypothesis I would say.

So the hypothesis would be it is Bima.
I have not been able after some reading and googling to confirm nor deny the hypothesis yet.

Any opinions on the character being Bima?
And what are the opinions on the Krisdisk, is there a better book around?

Regards, Erik

David · 15th May 2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

What are the opinions on Jenssen?
To me (only 2 years interested in the subject and with only a small library) it seems to be the best resource in a language I can read.
That does not make everything in the book true of course but a good basis for at least an hypothesis I would say.
So the hypothesis would be it is Bima.

I don't pesonally have any opinion of Jensen as i do not own his Kris Disc as of yet. It may well be a very good reference. I do know that there is no way you can rely on any single source for accurate keris information and that "accurate" can change from island to island and era to era. Every book i have on the subject has at least some questionable material in it.
I wouldn't say that "the hypothesis would be it is Bima". That is, apparently, Jensen's hypothesis, but i have never read that from any other author i am familiar with.
Perhaps someone who has the Kris Disc can fill us in on what exactly has lead Jensen to his hypothesis. If he has no sources and no observational reasoning for his statement then it is more a guess than a hypothesis.

14th May 2009, 08:07 PM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Figural hilts of 1 character?! This is an extention of the jawa demam and raksasa discussions going on. Here are four figural hilts that I used to call raksasa as in the flesh eating demon from the ramayana. They have a series of characteristics that can be found in each one (and one small difference which makes two subtypes to me) Who can help specify/identify the specific character? Front of head with a diadem Mouth with stylized fangs Beaklike nose with a sort of lip? To the side of the head some sort of hairy/flowerlike extension of the hair. Clearly identifyable hands and knees both with bracelets Position of hand on knees (right hand sideways to the knee, left hand over the knee Position of fingers (right hand with pinkee to the belly, left hand with the thumb to the belly) Sitting on a throne of leaves (tumbal?) Necklace type A ending flowerlike type B clearly snakelike Long hair stretching unto the back Well that was all I could find and here are the photo's! Attached Images

14th May 2009, 08:34 PM	#2
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Answer It seems I can answer my own question. Just reread Jenssen krisdisk chapter 3 and 4 what I should have done before! He describes this character as Bima, the fiercest of the Pandawa brothers. Are there other opinions on this then what Jenssen wrote? If there are other sources I can read about this please let me know! Regards, Erik And the thing aroudn the ear is called sumping ron which is a leaflike jewellery! Last edited by erikscollectables; 14th May 2009 at 08:56 PM.

15th May 2009, 06:57 PM	#9
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Jenssen? David and others, What are the opinions on Jenssen? To me (only 2 years interested in the subject and with only a small library) it seems to be the best resource in a language I can read. That does not make everything in the book true of course but a good basis for at least an hypothesis I would say. So the hypothesis would be it is Bima. I have not been able after some reading and googling to confirm nor deny the hypothesis yet. Any opinions on the character being Bima? And what are the opinions on the Krisdisk, is there a better book around? Regards, Erik

14th May 2009, 10:02 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Hello Erik, first off all i want to tell you that there are more different "subtypes" of this form. I have 9 handles of this form in my collection and there are two which have a garuda mungkur in the back, one have a diadem in front of the head and two I have where the hands are floral carved. When I find the time I will take some pictures to show this. Second I have to agree with David. Jenssen don't give a source from where he know that this is Bima for sure. sajen

14th May 2009, 10:02 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,120	...then again, i believe that Bima has been depicted with a moustache, so maybe those "fangs" aren't fangs afterall.