1630s English basket hilts

urbanspaceman · 13th October 2023, 02:48 PM

This is an extract from the internal history of the Cutlers Company of London regarding Benjamin Stone who had a grinding mill in Hounslow before going to Oxford with King Charles (1st).
In a statement regarding his business:
"In July of 1631 he delivered 4,356 hilted swords to the Tower with basket hilts."
My question is what sort of baskets would these have been?
It was well known he was criticised for using cast brass hilts but were they baskets?

fernando · 13th October 2023, 04:03 PM

Keith, i don't know if you have been through this material; Benjamim Stone was much of a blade smith, apparently the hilts being made by someone else. Perhaps you wish to take a look at this article; scrolling down to
The Hounslow Factory, where (some of) Benjamim's saga is described.

Jim McDougall · 13th October 2023, 05:47 PM

Fernando thank you for linking this great article by Hayward, who was a brilliant authority on English swords. The topic of the Hounslow shops is a most esoteric subject and as noted, Benjamin Stone was an ambitious entrepeneur who though not a swordsmith himself, put together a sort of confederation of them here, outside the jurisdiction of the London Cutlers Co. with a number of German smiths who were brought to England in 1629.

I am wondering if the 'basket hilts' mentioned may have been a proto version of the familiar 'mortuary' swords of the English Civil Wars. While these are typically associated with the period after the execution of Charles I (1649) it is known these were around before that, with some suggesting the earliest were c. 1635.

Though the 'mortuary' is technically a 'half basket', it is included with the basket hilts in typologies and the basket term was likely collectively used.

Attached image of a 'mortuary' c.1640 believed Hounslow, Solingen 'ANDREA FERARA' blade, revealing the numbers of German made blades used in Hounslow despite the notion all blades were made there.

urbanspaceman · 13th October 2023, 06:03 PM

Thank-you Fernando... yes, I am familiar with that material.
Those luxurious British basket hilts shown are what have ended-up in museums globally, but, although contemporary, they were private purchases.
4,356 swords meant munition's grade and this is what I am interested in.
At that time we were no longer engaged in the five years of Anglo-Spanish war ('25-'30); plus, we had also fought the French for a couple of years '27-'29, so we would have certainly needed to replenish munitions.
However, ongoing, we were helping in the Dutch-Portuguese war and sixty years of that certainly required constant supplies of serviceable weapons.
You can see why there was money to be made supplying the Tower. Stone invested heavily but was well rewarded. He supplied complete outfits too: sword, scabbard, belt and etc.
So, in 1631, what would an English/British munitions grade basket used in the Dutch-Portuguese war have looked like?

urbanspaceman · 13th October 2023, 06:15 PM

Hey Jim, I was busy writing at the same time.
I'd looked at the early Mortuary and half-baskets but felt they were much too flimsy for extensive militia arming.

Incidentally, I saw reference made to Mortuary hilts having come from Islay; and while there was a huge black-smithing empire in long-term existence there, I don't know why we would buy our kit from the farthest point in the British Isles. Especially back then, when there was no whisky coming from there. The only thing they had to offer was peat... and trouble.

As I mentioned, Stone was heavily criticised for making his hilts from cast brass, which the Cutlers Company regarded as too breakable, unlike iron.
So, that tends towards Walloons doesn't it? Were they in use here back then?

Jim McDougall · 13th October 2023, 06:56 PM

I think the munitions grade term would apply to the numbers of forms of swords with various configurations of saltires and shields in the 16th century (even latter 15th) through Europe and considered 'basket hilt' prototypes.

These were well known in England, and one in particular is this one found on the 'Mary Rose' which sank in 1545. While this one is mostly intact, there was evidence of at least two others like it or similar found in concretions. This suggests the military 'munitions' category.
In subsequent years these kinds of 'basket' hilted swords were also well known in the Netherlands, as shown in numerous examples in the paper by the late Claude Blair "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" ("Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800" ed. David Caldwell, 1981).

It is clear that these basket hilt types (which indeed inspired the 'mortuary' type half basket as well as fully developed Highland basket hilt (then called Irish) were well circulating in the times in question. Most of the examples in Blair seem to date around 1570s or slightly later, and likely the form or perhaps even actual examples remained in use or actively issued for some time .

The question is, as noted, what sort of 'basket hilts' would have been provided to the Tower in 1631. We can only guess they must have been of this form loosely followed, if Stone indeed produced them. Or did Stone, the clever enterpreneur simply provide stores of surplus swords from these earlier campaigns? The Hounslow enterprise was hardly well tooled by 1631 (the Germans brought there in 1629).
It remains a good question.

Jim McDougall · 13th October 2023, 07:01 PM

Keith, we seem to be crossing posts! Good note on walloons, but they would not be termed basket hilts. Trying to find more on Stone and his 'enterprises'. As Fernando has observed, and we have found in earlier study, he was hardly a sword 'maker', but more an enterprising dealer. The note on brass is interesting and another reason he liked being outside the scope of the Cutlers Co.

Jim McDougall · 13th October 2023, 07:44 PM

In "British Military Swords" by Stuart Mowbray, 2013, p.42
"...Stone was a member of the Cutlers Co.who was already supplying large consignments of IMPORTED SWORDS to the ordnance".
Referring to the bringing in of German smiths from Holland in 1629. It is noted he became associated with Hounslow from then until the exodus of many of the smiths to Oxford in 1642 but it took some time to get things running.

This 'basket' , Dutch, c. 1560, seems to be of the general form of that period in Netherlands and in England (the commonality between Dutch and English swords seems well established) and likely for some time. It is interesting of course that when Charles I recruited German smiths in 1629, they came from Holland. In these times in England swords which were often German were termed 'Dutch', with 'duetsche' being the intended term.

the page from Blair, (1981, op.cit.).

fernando · 13th October 2023, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... So, in 1631, what would an English/British munitions grade basket used in the Dutch-Portuguese war have looked like?...

How about considering some of the examples pictured in the above (myArmoury) link ?

13th October 2023, 02:48 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 546	1630s English basket hilts This is an extract from the internal history of the Cutlers Company of London regarding Benjamin Stone who had a grinding mill in Hounslow before going to Oxford with King Charles (1st). In a statement regarding his business: "In July of 1631 he delivered 4,356 hilted swords to the Tower with basket hilts." My question is what sort of baskets would these have been? It was well known he was criticised for using cast brass hilts but were they baskets?

13th October 2023, 05:47 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Fernando thank you for linking this great article by Hayward, who was a brilliant authority on English swords. The topic of the Hounslow shops is a most esoteric subject and as noted, Benjamin Stone was an ambitious entrepeneur who though not a swordsmith himself, put together a sort of confederation of them here, outside the jurisdiction of the London Cutlers Co. with a number of German smiths who were brought to England in 1629. I am wondering if the 'basket hilts' mentioned may have been a proto version of the familiar 'mortuary' swords of the English Civil Wars. While these are typically associated with the period after the execution of Charles I (1649) it is known these were around before that, with some suggesting the earliest were c. 1635. Though the 'mortuary' is technically a 'half basket', it is included with the basket hilts in typologies and the basket term was likely collectively used. Attached image of a 'mortuary' c.1640 believed Hounslow, Solingen 'ANDREA FERARA' blade, revealing the numbers of German made blades used in Hounslow despite the notion all blades were made there. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th October 2023 at 06:14 PM.

13th October 2023, 06:03 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 546	1630s wars etc Thank-you Fernando... yes, I am familiar with that material. Those luxurious British basket hilts shown are what have ended-up in museums globally, but, although contemporary, they were private purchases. 4,356 swords meant munition's grade and this is what I am interested in. At that time we were no longer engaged in the five years of Anglo-Spanish war ('25-'30); plus, we had also fought the French for a couple of years '27-'29, so we would have certainly needed to replenish munitions. However, ongoing, we were helping in the Dutch-Portuguese war and sixty years of that certainly required constant supplies of serviceable weapons. You can see why there was money to be made supplying the Tower. Stone invested heavily but was well rewarded. He supplied complete outfits too: sword, scabbard, belt and etc. So, in 1631, what would an English/British munitions grade basket used in the Dutch-Portuguese war have looked like?

13th October 2023, 06:15 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 546	crossed in the post Hey Jim, I was busy writing at the same time. I'd looked at the early Mortuary and half-baskets but felt they were much too flimsy for extensive militia arming. Incidentally, I saw reference made to Mortuary hilts having come from Islay; and while there was a huge black-smithing empire in long-term existence there, I don't know why we would buy our kit from the farthest point in the British Isles. Especially back then, when there was no whisky coming from there. The only thing they had to offer was peat... and trouble. As I mentioned, Stone was heavily criticised for making his hilts from cast brass, which the Cutlers Company regarded as too breakable, unlike iron. So, that tends towards Walloons doesn't it? Were they in use here back then?

13th October 2023, 06:56 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I think the munitions grade term would apply to the numbers of forms of swords with various configurations of saltires and shields in the 16th century (even latter 15th) through Europe and considered 'basket hilt' prototypes. These were well known in England, and one in particular is this one found on the 'Mary Rose' which sank in 1545. While this one is mostly intact, there was evidence of at least two others like it or similar found in concretions. This suggests the military 'munitions' category. In subsequent years these kinds of 'basket' hilted swords were also well known in the Netherlands, as shown in numerous examples in the paper by the late Claude Blair "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" ("Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800" ed. David Caldwell, 1981). It is clear that these basket hilt types (which indeed inspired the 'mortuary' type half basket as well as fully developed Highland basket hilt (then called Irish) were well circulating in the times in question. Most of the examples in Blair seem to date around 1570s or slightly later, and likely the form or perhaps even actual examples remained in use or actively issued for some time . The question is, as noted, what sort of 'basket hilts' would have been provided to the Tower in 1631. We can only guess they must have been of this form loosely followed, if Stone indeed produced them. Or did Stone, the clever enterpreneur simply provide stores of surplus swords from these earlier campaigns? The Hounslow enterprise was hardly well tooled by 1631 (the Germans brought there in 1629). It remains a good question. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th October 2023 at 07:07 PM.

13th October 2023, 04:03 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Keith, i don't know if you have been through this material; Benjamim Stone was much of a blade smith, apparently the hilts being made by someone else. Perhaps you wish to take a look at this article; scrolling down to The Hounslow Factory, where (some of) Benjamim's saga is described.

13th October 2023, 07:01 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Keith, we seem to be crossing posts! Good note on walloons, but they would not be termed basket hilts. Trying to find more on Stone and his 'enterprises'. As Fernando has observed, and we have found in earlier study, he was hardly a sword 'maker', but more an enterprising dealer. The note on brass is interesting and another reason he liked being outside the scope of the Cutlers Co.

13th October 2023, 07:44 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	In "British Military Swords" by Stuart Mowbray, 2013, p.42 "...Stone was a member of the Cutlers Co.who was already supplying large consignments of IMPORTED SWORDS to the ordnance". Referring to the bringing in of German smiths from Holland in 1629. It is noted he became associated with Hounslow from then until the exodus of many of the smiths to Oxford in 1642 but it took some time to get things running. This 'basket' , Dutch, c. 1560, seems to be of the general form of that period in Netherlands and in England (the commonality between Dutch and English swords seems well established) and likely for some time. It is interesting of course that when Charles I recruited German smiths in 1629, they came from Holland. In these times in England swords which were often German were termed 'Dutch', with 'duetsche' being the intended term. the page from Blair, (1981, op.cit.). Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th October 2023 at 07:55 PM.