Island made sword

scratch · 17th September 2007, 06:25 AM

A fond Hello to all,
Thank you for the time and knowledge shared on this forum. As a novice, what I manage to understand is interesting and has led me to begin to appreciate objects from all over the world

I have a very small kukri collection plus a few others. I bought this sword as an Island made/Soldier made WWII japanese style sword. I was told it did not have a tempered edge. I thought it may have been tempered so "cleaned" blade and I found to my untrained eye what looks to be a hardened edge. The spine is quite rough, being flat at the tip, raised in the middle and flatish near the hilt. The blade has slight distal taper towards tip. It is apprx 8mm thick through most of length of blade, 31 inch overall, 22 3/4 inch blade, Weight 29 oz. I apologize for asking for an ID on this but I was told that it was a poor quality blacksmith made piece of rubbish. I think it shows some degree of craft. All help and clarification as to how, when and by who this sword was made would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time and patience.

Best Regards

Daniel

scratch · 19th September 2007, 09:18 AM

Hello All,
Is this not the appropiate forum for this blade?
This is my first post, due to the lack of welcome or replies I can only assume so.

Sincerely

Daniel

Henk · 19th September 2007, 09:40 AM

Daniel,

This should be the forum for this blade.

Let me be the first to welcome you on the forum.

Thusfar nobody reacted on this blade because I think every knowledgeable member is searching in his or her books.

For me it is rather hard to comment this blade. My first impression is the blade of a samurai sword. So a japanese blade. And that's it for me.
Do you only have the blade or do you have a dress for it? When dressed, a blade probably can tell more because this blade has no marks or stamps to identify.

scratch · 19th September 2007, 10:25 AM

Thank you for the welcome Henk

Sorry if I jumped the gun but as this is one of the friendly forums I thought I must have caused offence somehow. My sincere apologies for my misinterpretation

Part of me wanted to think that this blade is japanese but the advice I received, including handling 2 old pieces, they were very light and meticulously finished, led me to believe it was as suggested an island made sword/jeep spring sword.
I have the fittings but thought they might bias the opinion on blade, I will be happy to take pics of them, they may not be original if this is a japanese blade.
I would be flabbergasted and excited if this proves to be the case! In different lights the steel is interesting.
Thank you for the communication

Kind regards

Daniel

Bill M · 19th September 2007, 11:46 AM

It is certainly a Japanese design blade. Difficult to tell the quality from your pictures and the state of polish, but I would not call it "rubbish." It has a nice curve (sori) and clean lines.

Since the cutting edge is less than 24" it would be classed as a WAKIZASHI.

These blades were commonly carried by the non-warrior class as a main blade or by the Samurai class as a secondary sword to the longer blade Katana (over 24" blade cutting edge)

It appears to have some forging flaws or more probably rust pits. If you could take more detailed pictures of the tip and the spine, it would help in further classification.

I would suggest that you do not clean the tang, but are there any markings on the tang? This is where a maker often added details that would help in classification. These are sometimes difficult to photograph, but can be shown by careful rubbing. If there are Japanese characters there, I can show you how to make copies that are more easily seen than with a photograph.

From the shape of the blade I would guess it was made in the last few hundred years, possibly the last century. I can see a faint line where it looks like it has a hardened edge or hamon. If you want to know more, I suggest you visit this link to a website hosted by one of our members.

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

It would help to see the fittings.

The people on this board would be able to give you much better information.
http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessageboard/

Welcome to Ethnographic Arms and Armor! Hope that you continue to visit and post.

Henk · 19th September 2007, 07:43 PM

Daniel,

Bill is right, although japanese blades are not my field of knowledge I also thought to see some details that gave me the idea that this sword isn't rubbish at all. The links Bill gave you can be of a great help. After all that is the forum of the japanese blades.

Bill advised you not to clean the tang. Stronger and that is the knowledge I have about japanese swords, you never ever should touch the tang. The rust on the tang can tell someone who is familair with japanese blades how old the sword is. Even when the tang isn't marked.

And yes, we would love to see the fittings. That makes a sword complete and gives us an idea how the complete piece looks like.
We don't only like to discuss blades, but also we like to lean back in our chair and admire the beauty of a weapon.

Andrew · 21st September 2007, 02:33 PM

While this sword may eventually be established as gunto, I must respectfully disagree at this point. The only gunto-like fitting shown is the scabbard hang-ring. The tsuba/guard, for instance, is definitely not gunto, and the three hole tang is not typical gunto, in my limited experience.

Very interesting sword, however. I'd like to hear from Rich about this one.

Bill M · 21st September 2007, 04:01 PM

I have to agree with Rick that this is not a gunto if we judge by the current fittings.

It also looks like the tsuba (handle) is held on by wood screws. Should be tapered pegs.

Andrew · 21st September 2007, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I have to agree with Rick that this is not a gunto if we judge by the current fittings.

Rick?

Bill M · 21st September 2007, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Rick?

PS! (that means "OOPS with embaressed faces)

Sorry! I agree with Andrew -- TWICE!

spiral · 22nd September 2007, 01:10 AM

looks a clumsy one to me, blade has no distal taper for starters.

It isnt Japanese even at the very lowest tourist level I am sure.

The Jap. Army took swordmiths with them during world war 2 for repair, modifying etc. , it realy doesnt look remotly like thier work though, by any stretch of imagination.

Its as genuine Japanese as a $1 ebay piece from Shanghai.

Spiral

17th September 2007, 06:25 AM	#1
scratch Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 96	Island made sword A fond Hello to all, Thank you for the time and knowledge shared on this forum. As a novice, what I manage to understand is interesting and has led me to begin to appreciate objects from all over the world I have a very small kukri collection plus a few others. I bought this sword as an Island made/Soldier made WWII japanese style sword. I was told it did not have a tempered edge. I thought it may have been tempered so "cleaned" blade and I found to my untrained eye what looks to be a hardened edge. The spine is quite rough, being flat at the tip, raised in the middle and flatish near the hilt. The blade has slight distal taper towards tip. It is apprx 8mm thick through most of length of blade, 31 inch overall, 22 3/4 inch blade, Weight 29 oz. I apologize for asking for an ID on this but I was told that it was a poor quality blacksmith made piece of rubbish. I think it shows some degree of craft. All help and clarification as to how, when and by who this sword was made would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time and patience. Best Regards Daniel Attached Images

19th September 2007, 11:46 AM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	It is certainly a Japanese design blade. Difficult to tell the quality from your pictures and the state of polish, but I would not call it "rubbish." It has a nice curve (sori) and clean lines. Since the cutting edge is less than 24" it would be classed as a WAKIZASHI. These blades were commonly carried by the non-warrior class as a main blade or by the Samurai class as a secondary sword to the longer blade Katana (over 24" blade cutting edge) It appears to have some forging flaws or more probably rust pits. If you could take more detailed pictures of the tip and the spine, it would help in further classification. I would suggest that you do not clean the tang, but are there any markings on the tang? This is where a maker often added details that would help in classification. These are sometimes difficult to photograph, but can be shown by careful rubbing. If there are Japanese characters there, I can show you how to make copies that are more easily seen than with a photograph. From the shape of the blade I would guess it was made in the last few hundred years, possibly the last century. I can see a faint line where it looks like it has a hardened edge or hamon. If you want to know more, I suggest you visit this link to a website hosted by one of our members. http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm It would help to see the fittings. The people on this board would be able to give you much better information. http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessageboard/ Welcome to Ethnographic Arms and Armor! Hope that you continue to visit and post. Last edited by Bill Marsh; 19th September 2007 at 12:06 PM.

22nd September 2007, 01:10 AM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	looks a clumsy one to me, blade has no distal taper for starters. It isnt Japanese even at the very lowest tourist level I am sure. The Jap. Army took swordmiths with them during world war 2 for repair, modifying etc. , it realy doesnt look remotly like thier work though, by any stretch of imagination. Its as genuine Japanese as a $1 ebay piece from Shanghai. Spiral Last edited by spiral; 22nd September 2007 at 02:24 AM.

19th September 2007, 09:18 AM	#2
scratch Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 96	Hello All, Is this not the appropiate forum for this blade? This is my first post, due to the lack of welcome or replies I can only assume so. Sincerely Daniel

19th September 2007, 09:40 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Daniel, This should be the forum for this blade. Let me be the first to welcome you on the forum. Thusfar nobody reacted on this blade because I think every knowledgeable member is searching in his or her books. For me it is rather hard to comment this blade. My first impression is the blade of a samurai sword. So a japanese blade. And that's it for me. Do you only have the blade or do you have a dress for it? When dressed, a blade probably can tell more because this blade has no marks or stamps to identify.

19th September 2007, 10:25 AM	#4
scratch Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 96	Thank you for the welcome Henk Sorry if I jumped the gun but as this is one of the friendly forums I thought I must have caused offence somehow. My sincere apologies for my misinterpretation Part of me wanted to think that this blade is japanese but the advice I received, including handling 2 old pieces, they were very light and meticulously finished, led me to believe it was as suggested an island made sword/jeep spring sword. I have the fittings but thought they might bias the opinion on blade, I will be happy to take pics of them, they may not be original if this is a japanese blade. I would be flabbergasted and excited if this proves to be the case! In different lights the steel is interesting. Thank you for the communication Kind regards Daniel

19th September 2007, 07:43 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Daniel, Bill is right, although japanese blades are not my field of knowledge I also thought to see some details that gave me the idea that this sword isn't rubbish at all. The links Bill gave you can be of a great help. After all that is the forum of the japanese blades. Bill advised you not to clean the tang. Stronger and that is the knowledge I have about japanese swords, you never ever should touch the tang. The rust on the tang can tell someone who is familair with japanese blades how old the sword is. Even when the tang isn't marked. And yes, we would love to see the fittings. That makes a sword complete and gives us an idea how the complete piece looks like. We don't only like to discuss blades, but also we like to lean back in our chair and admire the beauty of a weapon.

21st September 2007, 02:33 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	While this sword may eventually be established as gunto, I must respectfully disagree at this point. The only gunto-like fitting shown is the scabbard hang-ring. The tsuba/guard, for instance, is definitely not gunto, and the three hole tang is not typical gunto, in my limited experience. Very interesting sword, however. I'd like to hear from Rich about this one.

21st September 2007, 04:01 PM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I have to agree with Rick that this is not a gunto if we judge by the current fittings. It also looks like the tsuba (handle) is held on by wood screws. Should be tapered pegs.