Tawdry Tulwar.

Norman McCormick · 13th March 2009, 11:29 PM

Hi All,
Looking for some practical ideas on this one. This was described as an 'Arab Sword' with 'teeth marks' on the blade. It was removed by E-Bay U.K. because it had a curved blade longer than 18 inches (U.K. knife and sword legislation 'anomaly'). To cut a long story short I bought it privately very reasonably which might be just as well but you never know! As you can see from the sellers photograph the hilt has been painted and the blade may or may not have been varnished. The question is what to do when I get it i.e. the best way to remove aforesaid paint and varnish? Thanks for all and any replies.
Regards,
Norman.

katana · 13th March 2009, 11:48 PM

Hi Norman

,
it really depends on the type of paint. The hilt appears to be 'sprayed' ....so likely cellulose or acrylic ...spray 'thinners' on a cloth would probably work well ....mind bare hands though...this stuff removes natural oils from your skin (almost instantly) ....Oh and no smoking whilst you clean

highly inflammable....although flames and heat will also do the trick (if you do decide to ignore the warning)

Nitromors (trade name), a paint stripper available from DIY stores will also do the trick but is likely to slightly discolour the surface of the metal below (caustic reaction lifts the paint, nasty stuff if you get it in your eyes and chemically burns your hands)....brush it on leave for a few minutes...the paint /varnish/lacquer will react and sort of 'bubble' , use a stiff nylon brush to rub off the paint....may need further treatment to remove 'stubborn areas' though.

Regards David

Norman McCormick · 13th March 2009, 11:57 PM

Hi David,
Thanks for the info. I'm thinking, from what you've said, regardless of which method of paint removal I use the metal will react to some degree or other. I suppose the first thing, after receipt, will be to post photos and get some opinions as to the age and quality of the piece as a whole and that may determine a particular approach. It looks as if it may be a nice piece but as we are all well aware sellers photos can be 'misleading' at times. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.
P.S. I've had a particularly nasty run in with caustic soda so I'd be happy, if possible, to give anything along those lines a wide berth.

katana · 14th March 2009, 12:54 AM

Hi Norman,
when I said 'caustic' I should have said 'alkaline'. I suppose the effect on the metal surface would be akin to an etch with ,say, vinegar. The 'thinners' is a solvent and would not react with the metal, but can be a little messy, but it works extremely well. I have a Finnish Puukko which some fool had daubed with red paint (all over the curly birch handle.) Thinners and several cloths later, I easily removed the offending paint without damage to the birch

Hope this clarifies things.

Regards David

Pukka Bundook · 14th March 2009, 04:55 AM

Hello Norman,

I think you got nice and lucky!!

I don't know if you can get a product over there called "Circa 1850 finish remover" (or something close to that)

I've found it works awfully well and doesn't even eat your hands. It doesn't discolour metal and removes most paint. I have used it on a gun painted gold all over, and on another painted black!
I just applied it pretty thick, let it sit a few minutes, then rubbed it with fine wire wool. Don't appear to have to wear gloves but it might be smart!

I once used Polly-stripper on something and got some in my eye, it felt like a cat was in there clawing to be out!

Rick · 14th March 2009, 06:33 PM

If you are going to use a solvent based remover you might want to protect the mastic that holds the blade in the hilt . There's always a chance it may soften along with the paint . You might want to melt a little paraffin wax and paint a few layers of it over the mastic .

I would think any decent gel type paint remover will do the trick quite well .
In the US that would mean 5F5 or Strypeeze .

Norman McCormick · 18th March 2009, 10:31 PM

Hi,
Here some stats, length 38ins [965mm], blade 32 1/4ins [820mm], width 1 11/16ins [45mm], thickness 1/4ins [6mm], pommel disc 3 1/4ins [82mm], weight 2lb 12oz [1.5kgs]. Blade is wickedly sharp, the 'false' back edge has not been sharpened. The pommel disc is the largest that I've seen but then again I've not seen that many. Any other comments as to the 'gold paint', or otherwise, under the black welcome.
Regards,
Norman.

sabertasche · 19th March 2009, 03:19 AM

Hi Norman, Fantastic new re your daughter

The sword is nice too.

Greg

ariel · 19th March 2009, 03:57 AM

Congratulations to Dr. McCormick and her parents!
Tell her to become a dermatologist: easy hours, great income, and nobody dies :-)

Norman McCormick · 19th March 2009, 07:43 PM

Greg, Ariel,
Thanks for the kind words re the new Doc, Ariel I think she's still full of 'new doctor enthusiasm', although she's worked part-time in the hospital throughout her degree as an Auxiliary Nurse and a Phlebotomist, for 'Drama and Gore' so we shall see what happens.

As to the Tulwar, I think my immediate enthusiasm for 'gold' hilts has waned and the 'glint of gold' is in fact an earlier attempt with a pot of paint therefore am going ahead with stripping the hilt. Will post the result.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 21st March 2009, 03:23 PM

Hi,
Stripped the hilt and I am very pleased with the results. David kindly suggested an early 20th Century date on the basis of the previous photos, looking at these photos do you think it might slip into the 19th? The removal of the paint revealed a 4 stamped into the hilt, any suggestions? There also appears to have been numbers/letters stamped into the blade at the hilt but unfortunately they seem to have been lost. Any ideas welcome.
Regards,
Norman.

Pukka Bundook · 21st March 2009, 03:48 PM

Hi Norman,
I don't see anything that would suggest a date later than mid-19th century really, other than the blade doesn't look to have been re-sharpened as have many.
If I guessed, I'd say 1850 -75.....but there are many here who know more than me!
Armoury stamps suggest this isn't a real late piece.

Best wishes,

R.

Atlantia · 21st March 2009, 04:07 PM

Its a nice sword. Does anyone think its a late 19th/early 20thC military tulwar?

Norman McCormick · 21st March 2009, 05:19 PM

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the input, the original photos were unclear and with the painted hilt the piece did look newer than now supposed. I'm pleased we're now into the 19th Cent, the blade on this is exceptionally sharp and 'beefy' in my experience with an unusually large pommel disc and a nice yelman even the grip is a wee bit bigger than usual. I don't think this is a military issue Tulwar, blade is too well made. Somebody has had a real go at the blade so I want to take some photos and see what you think. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

katana · 22nd March 2009, 11:27 PM

Hi Norman,
I'm beginning to wonder whether this is a British made Tulwar....

I'm hoping Jim or Jens may have some ideas

Regards David

Norman McCormick · 26th March 2009, 01:58 AM

Side by side.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th March 2009, 06:58 PM

Hi Norman,
There is something which I did not show you yet, and that is that on my blade, the two sides are different. I believe that one side is mono steel and the other side could be wootz, but I have not yet tried to prove it. Blades like this are fairly rare, and I find them very interesting.
On the other picture you can see the result, before and after I used the Dremel.
Jens

Atlantia · 26th March 2009, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Norman,
There is something which I did not show you yet, and that is that on my blade, the two sides are different. I believe that one side is mono steel and the other side could be wootz, but I have not yet tried to prove it. Blades like this are fairly rare, and I find them very interesting.
On the other picture you can see the result, before and after I used the Dremel.
Jens

Excellent work Jens!
May I ask a question though?
How do you get a 'flat' surface with a dremel 511?
How many did you go through on one blade?
Do you finish with paper on a flat block?
your results are impressive.

Regards
Gene

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2009, 09:08 PM

First of all, Norman, my congratulations to your daughter as well!!!! and to you, you deserve to be unabashedly proud!!!

Great contributions on this trusty tulwar, and its great to see Jens' example as a wonderful benchmark. With the comparable markings it would seem that this tulwar is likely Rajasthan regions and the 1870's into latter part of the century seems quite plausible. If I'm not mistaken, the dotted script on Jens' example suggests Bikaner armoury, which is in Rajasthan.

The interesting symbol enclosed by the sickle marks seems to recall the same practice used by European makers on thier blades. There is still a long way to go in trying to understand the more temporal possibilities in many of the stamped symbols on these blades beyond simple commercial or inventory uses.

David is quite on target noting the Mole blades, and by the 1880's it seems that this producer from Birmingham (working in contract with Wilkinson) was supplying blades to India for the Raj. I believe the cavalry units were issued blades in either 31" or 33" increments, one for Bengal the other Madras, I cannot recall exact details. The blades were more like the standard hollow ground forms and I have seen them, by Mole, mounted in the three bar (Gothic) type hilts similar to the British M1829 light cavalry.

I have seen tulwars by Mole (as noted) which seemed cast white metal hilts from latter 19th century, supplying cavalry troopers of the Native regiments.

There was an outfitter, J. Bourne & Sons, who produced M1796 style stirrup hilted light cavalry sabres, and in research found that one unit that for certain used these was the 13th Bengal Lancers (research with provenanced comparable example so marked).

All best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 26th March 2009, 11:26 PM

Hi Jens,
Careful use of the Dremel seems to work very well, I'm always amazed when people take a file to roughly sharpen a blade rather than finish it properly with a steel or a stone. The 'double-sided' steel on your Tulwar is very intriguing, I do of course know of constructing a blade using soft and hard steels Viking, Japanese etc., but I'm at a bit of a loss as to the exact thinking behind wootz/mono side by side unless it is purely decorative or an exhibition of the swordsmith's skill. If you know more! There appears to be two small fullers on one side of the blade only? Very unusual. Thanks for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Jim,
Yep real proud and to cap it all she and two others appear to have the best results in the year out of 270 students. I don't know where she gets it from certainly not me, must be the wife, Damn!

Many thanks for the info on the British connection, I have to think that the multitude of differing/combinations of marks on Indian weaponry convey more perhaps than simply "Made In? by XYZ". Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st December 2011, 03:35 PM

Hi Gene,

Sorry for the late answer, and merry Christmas to you all – while I still remember it

.

I don’t know if it is a Dremel 511, on the thing is says Dremel Multi, so I suppose that is what it is

.

I used abrasive buffs fine 512 S – but before you start I would recommend that you get a handful of these abrasive buffs as the steel is very hard, and the buffs relatively soft in order not to scratch the blade.

Jens

PS I have not read all the mails, so should I have answered the question, the merry Christmas still stands.

13th March 2009, 11:29 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Tawdry Tulwar. Hi All, Looking for some practical ideas on this one. This was described as an 'Arab Sword' with 'teeth marks' on the blade. It was removed by E-Bay U.K. because it had a curved blade longer than 18 inches (U.K. knife and sword legislation 'anomaly'). To cut a long story short I bought it privately very reasonably which might be just as well but you never know! As you can see from the sellers photograph the hilt has been painted and the blade may or may not have been varnished. The question is what to do when I get it i.e. the best way to remove aforesaid paint and varnish? Thanks for all and any replies. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

13th March 2009, 11:57 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi David, Thanks for the info. I'm thinking, from what you've said, regardless of which method of paint removal I use the metal will react to some degree or other. I suppose the first thing, after receipt, will be to post photos and get some opinions as to the age and quality of the piece as a whole and that may determine a particular approach. It looks as if it may be a nice piece but as we are all well aware sellers photos can be 'misleading' at times. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman. P.S. I've had a particularly nasty run in with caustic soda so I'd be happy, if possible, to give anything along those lines a wide berth. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 14th March 2009 at 12:10 AM.

21st March 2009, 03:23 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Stripped the hilt and I am very pleased with the results. David kindly suggested an early 20th Century date on the basis of the previous photos, looking at these photos do you think it might slip into the 19th? The removal of the paint revealed a 4 stamped into the hilt, any suggestions? There also appears to have been numbers/letters stamped into the blade at the hilt but unfortunately they seem to have been lost. Any ideas welcome. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

26th March 2009, 01:58 AM	#16
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Side by side. Attached Images

26th March 2009, 06:58 PM	#17
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Norman, There is something which I did not show you yet, and that is that on my blade, the two sides are different. I believe that one side is mono steel and the other side could be wootz, but I have not yet tried to prove it. Blades like this are fairly rare, and I find them very interesting. On the other picture you can see the result, before and after I used the Dremel. Jens Attached Images

13th March 2009, 11:48 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Norman , it really depends on the type of paint. The hilt appears to be 'sprayed' ....so likely cellulose or acrylic ...spray 'thinners' on a cloth would probably work well ....mind bare hands though...this stuff removes natural oils from your skin (almost instantly) ....Oh and no smoking whilst you clean highly inflammable....although flames and heat will also do the trick (if you do decide to ignore the warning) Nitromors (trade name), a paint stripper available from DIY stores will also do the trick but is likely to slightly discolour the surface of the metal below (caustic reaction lifts the paint, nasty stuff if you get it in your eyes and chemically burns your hands)....brush it on leave for a few minutes...the paint /varnish/lacquer will react and sort of 'bubble' , use a stiff nylon brush to rub off the paint....may need further treatment to remove 'stubborn areas' though. Regards David

14th March 2009, 12:54 AM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Norman, when I said 'caustic' I should have said 'alkaline'. I suppose the effect on the metal surface would be akin to an etch with ,say, vinegar. The 'thinners' is a solvent and would not react with the metal, but can be a little messy, but it works extremely well. I have a Finnish Puukko which some fool had daubed with red paint (all over the curly birch handle.) Thinners and several cloths later, I easily removed the offending paint without damage to the birch Hope this clarifies things. Regards David

14th March 2009, 04:55 AM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Norman, I think you got nice and lucky!! I don't know if you can get a product over there called "Circa 1850 finish remover" (or something close to that) I've found it works awfully well and doesn't even eat your hands. It doesn't discolour metal and removes most paint. I have used it on a gun painted gold all over, and on another painted black! I just applied it pretty thick, let it sit a few minutes, then rubbed it with fine wire wool. Don't appear to have to wear gloves but it might be smart! I once used Polly-stripper on something and got some in my eye, it felt like a cat was in there clawing to be out!

14th March 2009, 06:33 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	If you are going to use a solvent based remover you might want to protect the mastic that holds the blade in the hilt . There's always a chance it may soften along with the paint . You might want to melt a little paraffin wax and paint a few layers of it over the mastic . I would think any decent gel type paint remover will do the trick quite well . In the US that would mean 5F5 or Strypeeze .

18th March 2009, 10:31 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Here some stats, length 38ins [965mm], blade 32 1/4ins [820mm], width 1 11/16ins [45mm], thickness 1/4ins [6mm], pommel disc 3 1/4ins [82mm], weight 2lb 12oz [1.5kgs]. Blade is wickedly sharp, the 'false' back edge has not been sharpened. The pommel disc is the largest that I've seen but then again I've not seen that many. Any other comments as to the 'gold paint', or otherwise, under the black welcome. Regards, Norman.

19th March 2009, 03:19 AM	#8
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	Hi Norman, Fantastic new re your daughter The sword is nice too. Greg

19th March 2009, 03:57 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Congratulations to Dr. McCormick and her parents! Tell her to become a dermatologist: easy hours, great income, and nobody dies :-)

19th March 2009, 07:43 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Greg, Ariel, Thanks for the kind words re the new Doc, Ariel I think she's still full of 'new doctor enthusiasm', although she's worked part-time in the hospital throughout her degree as an Auxiliary Nurse and a Phlebotomist, for 'Drama and Gore' so we shall see what happens. As to the Tulwar, I think my immediate enthusiasm for 'gold' hilts has waned and the 'glint of gold' is in fact an earlier attempt with a pot of paint therefore am going ahead with stripping the hilt. Will post the result. My Regards, Norman.

21st March 2009, 03:48 PM	#12
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hi Norman, I don't see anything that would suggest a date later than mid-19th century really, other than the blade doesn't look to have been re-sharpened as have many. If I guessed, I'd say 1850 -75.....but there are many here who know more than me! Armoury stamps suggest this isn't a real late piece. Best wishes, R.

21st March 2009, 04:07 PM	#13
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Its a nice sword. Does anyone think its a late 19th/early 20thC military tulwar?

21st March 2009, 05:19 PM	#14
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Guys, Thanks for the input, the original photos were unclear and with the painted hilt the piece did look newer than now supposed. I'm pleased we're now into the 19th Cent, the blade on this is exceptionally sharp and 'beefy' in my experience with an unusually large pommel disc and a nice yelman even the grip is a wee bit bigger than usual. I don't think this is a military issue Tulwar, blade is too well made. Somebody has had a real go at the blade so I want to take some photos and see what you think. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman.

22nd March 2009, 11:27 PM	#15
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Norman, I'm beginning to wonder whether this is a British made Tulwar.... I'm hoping Jim or Jens may have some ideas Regards David

26th March 2009, 09:08 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	First of all, Norman, my congratulations to your daughter as well!!!! and to you, you deserve to be unabashedly proud!!! Great contributions on this trusty tulwar, and its great to see Jens' example as a wonderful benchmark. With the comparable markings it would seem that this tulwar is likely Rajasthan regions and the 1870's into latter part of the century seems quite plausible. If I'm not mistaken, the dotted script on Jens' example suggests Bikaner armoury, which is in Rajasthan. The interesting symbol enclosed by the sickle marks seems to recall the same practice used by European makers on thier blades. There is still a long way to go in trying to understand the more temporal possibilities in many of the stamped symbols on these blades beyond simple commercial or inventory uses. David is quite on target noting the Mole blades, and by the 1880's it seems that this producer from Birmingham (working in contract with Wilkinson) was supplying blades to India for the Raj. I believe the cavalry units were issued blades in either 31" or 33" increments, one for Bengal the other Madras, I cannot recall exact details. The blades were more like the standard hollow ground forms and I have seen them, by Mole, mounted in the three bar (Gothic) type hilts similar to the British M1829 light cavalry. I have seen tulwars by Mole (as noted) which seemed cast white metal hilts from latter 19th century, supplying cavalry troopers of the Native regiments. There was an outfitter, J. Bourne & Sons, who produced M1796 style stirrup hilted light cavalry sabres, and in research found that one unit that for certain used these was the 13th Bengal Lancers (research with provenanced comparable example so marked). All best regards, Jim

26th March 2009, 11:26 PM	#20
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Jens, Careful use of the Dremel seems to work very well, I'm always amazed when people take a file to roughly sharpen a blade rather than finish it properly with a steel or a stone. The 'double-sided' steel on your Tulwar is very intriguing, I do of course know of constructing a blade using soft and hard steels Viking, Japanese etc., but I'm at a bit of a loss as to the exact thinking behind wootz/mono side by side unless it is purely decorative or an exhibition of the swordsmith's skill. If you know more! There appears to be two small fullers on one side of the blade only? Very unusual. Thanks for your interest. My Regards, Norman. Hi Jim, Yep real proud and to cap it all she and two others appear to have the best results in the year out of 270 students. I don't know where she gets it from certainly not me, must be the wife, Damn! Many thanks for the info on the British connection, I have to think that the multitude of differing/combinations of marks on Indian weaponry convey more perhaps than simply "Made In? by XYZ". Thanks again. My Regards, Norman.

21st December 2011, 03:35 PM	#21
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Gene, Sorry for the late answer, and merry Christmas to you all – while I still remember it . I don’t know if it is a Dremel 511, on the thing is says Dremel Multi, so I suppose that is what it is . I used abrasive buffs fine 512 S – but before you start I would recommend that you get a handful of these abrasive buffs as the steel is very hard, and the buffs relatively soft in order not to scratch the blade. Jens PS I have not read all the mails, so should I have answered the question, the merry Christmas still stands.