Swords at the Little Big Horn (Part II)

Andrew · 1st May 2005, 04:18 AM

A new member posted this on the original thread on the old forum:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php?

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Armstrong Custer

Hi Jeff D,
I wonder if you could direct me to a source for Custer having around thirty swords at the time of his death? Also, I'd be obliged for a source that his favorite was an M1860 sabre by Roby?
You may be interested to know that Custer's M1860 Roby sabre was sold at Butterfield & Butterfield of San Francisco's auction of Custer and Western Memorabilia on April 4, 1995. With an estimate of $30,000-40,000 it made (if I remember correctly) $32,000.

As you'll probably already know, Custer also famously retained an oversized Confederate cavalry officer's straight-bladed, double-edged sword whose owner he had killed in a running fight. The blade on this weapon was engraved 'No me saques sin raison; No me enbaines sine honor' ['Draw me not without cause; sheathe me not without honor']. It had a German 'Solingen' marked blade.

Ciao,
GAC

tom hyle · 1st May 2005, 11:46 AM

Is there a picture of said sword? Sounds Mexican.

Jeff D · 1st May 2005, 04:19 PM

Hi GAC,

I have read about the Roby saber a couple times, but, most recently in John Thillmann's Civil War Cavalry & Artillery Sabers On Pg 302; " for students of Roby sabers it may be of interest to note that one of George Armstrong Custer's cavalry sabers was a Roby enlisted model with an 1864 dated blade. It comes with a family provenance and may be seen in a 1995 dated Butterfield and Butterfield auction catalog, which also included a number of other Custer items."

I can't recall were I read about Custers collection of swords and unfortunately most of my books are in storage, If I do remember I will post it.

Hi Tom,
I have seen a number of European broadswords with this motto on them, and most recently on another thread a Caucasian saber.

All the Best.
Jeff

tom hyle · 1st May 2005, 04:37 PM

Of course, without seeing the sword, I can only point out that Mexico is closer, geographically, and often undercreditted for its role in US material culture. Also, that straight double edged swords that can fairly be described as oversized seem more common out of Mexico to a later date than out of Europe. The German-ness of the blade can be accepted well enough, although, of course, the Solingen marks have been famously counterfeited for a long time.

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2005, 04:52 AM

Hi Andrew,
"Son of the Morning Star" (Evan S. Connell, 1984, p.111) describes Custer's fight with a Confederate officer during the Civil War. Apparantly he killed the officer and took his "unusual double edged sword-its blade engraved in Spanish 'no me saques sin razon- no me envaines sin honor'. " It is noted that the eminent Custer historian Lawrence Frost examined the sword with a jewelers loop, presuming this to be a Toledo blade and looking for markings. He found instead Solingen marking in nearly obliterated letters near the hilt.
It says that the blade was 3" longer than the standard cavalry saber (which was 36" long) suggesting this would have had to be 39" long!!
The author notes that "...he liked swords and apparantly collected them with the innocent pleasure of those who collect cognac bottles and postage stamps.One of these weapons which Mr. Frost acquired , has an unusually short blade with an ivory channeled grip, the pommel consisting of a gold plated lions head with ruby like eyes. It probably was made in England and belonged to one of his ancestors.Then there is a militia officers sword with a mother of pearl grip and a brass pommel in the shape of a knights helmet. It dates from mid 19th c. and was manufactured in Chicopee, Mass. but that is all that Mr. Frost could find out".

It seems I recall the note on his sword collection and did see someplace the comment on thirty swords, but need to dig into the files!! It seems that they were once in the holdings of museum or something to do with this Mr. Frost.

The double edged sword with the familiar 'Spanish' motto were very common in colonial Mexico, and these were typically Spanish cavalry blades for M1769 swords. The blades themselves were shipped to Mexico unmounted and often mounted in sabre hilts of the period. The first one I ever encountered seemed very odd in having a broadsword blade in a sabre hilt, but apparantly these were mounted this way in Mexico in the 1820's and 1830's. The blade owned by the Confederate officer may well have been captured in the Mexican-American War 1846 . The Confederate forces also used many foreign swords during the Civil War, particularly British, but often German and undoubtedly even Mexican weapons. Straight cavalry blades of the 18th century often reached huge length as the dragoons often rode on huge draught horses, and required extra length blades. I once owned a M1788 British dragoon sword with a 40" blade..it was a monster!!
As has been noted, the 'Spanish' motto' appeared on many blades mounted worldwide as these were trade blades.

It seems quite familiar about the Roby sabre as well, I'll keep looking.

Best regards,
Jim

tom hyle · 3rd May 2005, 01:25 PM

The attitude toward Mexico on the part of US in the 18th and 19th was considerably different than currently, as well, with Mexico being more Europeanized from an earlier date, thus being earlier more "civilized" than USA (much of both had actually been civilized--city-based--long before White Eyes came along, of course) and being an alternative (to England) source of manufactured goods; importing cutlery from Mexico is mentioned in old accounts and in folklore. Additionally, extensive areas of what are now (or during the US civil war) USA were at one time (not that long before said war), either politically or culturally Mexican/Spanish colonial. Of course one notices this in the enormous country of Texas, but it was also pretty prominant in Colorado, for instance. It is entirely possible the Confederate officer was from an area recently under Mexican rule, or was himself of Mexican descent.

Andrew · 4th May 2005, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Andrew,

Hi Jim!

1st May 2005, 04:19 PM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi GAC, I have read about the Roby saber a couple times, but, most recently in John Thillmann's Civil War Cavalry & Artillery Sabers On Pg 302; " for students of Roby sabers it may be of interest to note that one of George Armstrong Custer's cavalry sabers was a Roby enlisted model with an 1864 dated blade. It comes with a family provenance and may be seen in a 1995 dated Butterfield and Butterfield auction catalog, which also included a number of other Custer items." I can't recall were I read about Custers collection of swords and unfortunately most of my books are in storage, If I do remember I will post it. Hi Tom, I have seen a number of European broadswords with this motto on them, and most recently on another thread a Caucasian saber. All the Best. Jeff Last edited by Jeff D; 1st May 2005 at 11:20 PM.

1st May 2005, 11:46 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is there a picture of said sword? Sounds Mexican.

1st May 2005, 04:37 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Of course, without seeing the sword, I can only point out that Mexico is closer, geographically, and often undercreditted for its role in US material culture. Also, that straight double edged swords that can fairly be described as oversized seem more common out of Mexico to a later date than out of Europe. The German-ness of the blade can be accepted well enough, although, of course, the Solingen marks have been famously counterfeited for a long time.

3rd May 2005, 04:52 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hi Andrew, "Son of the Morning Star" (Evan S. Connell, 1984, p.111) describes Custer's fight with a Confederate officer during the Civil War. Apparantly he killed the officer and took his "unusual double edged sword-its blade engraved in Spanish 'no me saques sin razon- no me envaines sin honor'. " It is noted that the eminent Custer historian Lawrence Frost examined the sword with a jewelers loop, presuming this to be a Toledo blade and looking for markings. He found instead Solingen marking in nearly obliterated letters near the hilt. It says that the blade was 3" longer than the standard cavalry saber (which was 36" long) suggesting this would have had to be 39" long!! The author notes that "...he liked swords and apparantly collected them with the innocent pleasure of those who collect cognac bottles and postage stamps.One of these weapons which Mr. Frost acquired , has an unusually short blade with an ivory channeled grip, the pommel consisting of a gold plated lions head with ruby like eyes. It probably was made in England and belonged to one of his ancestors.Then there is a militia officers sword with a mother of pearl grip and a brass pommel in the shape of a knights helmet. It dates from mid 19th c. and was manufactured in Chicopee, Mass. but that is all that Mr. Frost could find out". It seems I recall the note on his sword collection and did see someplace the comment on thirty swords, but need to dig into the files!! It seems that they were once in the holdings of museum or something to do with this Mr. Frost. The double edged sword with the familiar 'Spanish' motto were very common in colonial Mexico, and these were typically Spanish cavalry blades for M1769 swords. The blades themselves were shipped to Mexico unmounted and often mounted in sabre hilts of the period. The first one I ever encountered seemed very odd in having a broadsword blade in a sabre hilt, but apparantly these were mounted this way in Mexico in the 1820's and 1830's. The blade owned by the Confederate officer may well have been captured in the Mexican-American War 1846 . The Confederate forces also used many foreign swords during the Civil War, particularly British, but often German and undoubtedly even Mexican weapons. Straight cavalry blades of the 18th century often reached huge length as the dragoons often rode on huge draught horses, and required extra length blades. I once owned a M1788 British dragoon sword with a 40" blade..it was a monster!! As has been noted, the 'Spanish' motto' appeared on many blades mounted worldwide as these were trade blades. It seems quite familiar about the Roby sabre as well, I'll keep looking. Best regards, Jim

3rd May 2005, 01:25 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The attitude toward Mexico on the part of US in the 18th and 19th was considerably different than currently, as well, with Mexico being more Europeanized from an earlier date, thus being earlier more "civilized" than USA (much of both had actually been civilized--city-based--long before White Eyes came along, of course) and being an alternative (to England) source of manufactured goods; importing cutlery from Mexico is mentioned in old accounts and in folklore. Additionally, extensive areas of what are now (or during the US civil war) USA were at one time (not that long before said war), either politically or culturally Mexican/Spanish colonial. Of course one notices this in the enormous country of Texas, but it was also pretty prominant in Colorado, for instance. It is entirely possible the Confederate officer was from an area recently under Mexican rule, or was himself of Mexican descent.