Moroccan Saif with a British (?) Hanger Blade

TVV · 22nd November 2017, 07:13 PM

Here is a Moroccan Saif, or what we as collectors commonly refer to as "nimcha". The blade might actually fall loosely into the "nimcha" category, as it is 27.25 inches long (69 cm) and based on the fox markings stamped on both sides, it probably originated as a British hanger or cutlass.

The guard is also interesting, as it is of the type with the two inner quillons bent at a 90 degree angle to the blade, as opposed to running parallel to it. I found a similarly marked Moroccan sword in Oriental Arms Sold Items archive, with the more common guard form. Also, the fox on the one sold by Oriental Arms is running in the opposite direction.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2017, 09:31 PM

Interesting to see a British blade in one of these, though they are certainly known in this context. Actually this appears to be the 'fox' mark used in England as opposed to the 'running wolf' mark famed in German blades.

The 'fox' was used in England originally in the Shotley Bridge works near Durham in the north in the late 17th c., and in response to the German wolf used earlier in the century with German smiths at Hounslow outside of London.

In this case, the blade appears 18th century, and may be one applied in Birmingham c.1750s. Usually these bushy tail fox marks have the initials SH for Samuel Harvey, but it is known that another maker, Dawes, also used the fox but probably these were blank.

There was notable trade by England with Morocco in the 17th century, and there are instances of English merchants wearing 'nimcha'. Whether this might be one such example, or a blade which ended up in the Moroccan context would be hard to say, but the connection is clear.

** see currently running thread on Shotley Bridge for more on these marks.

Norman McCormick · 22nd November 2017, 10:15 PM

Hi Teodor,
You may find this thread of interest. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=1742
My Regards,
Norman.

ariel · 22nd November 2017, 11:45 PM

The side langets bent to form a circle perpendicular to the blade are characteristic of Omani “Zanzibar” saifs.
The greatest majority of Moroccan saifs ( “nimchas”) sport trade european blades. Thus, I do not find it unusual to see a British one. I think we even saw here a Moroccan Koummya ( a very peculiar blade!) with British marks. My guess only Flyssas were always local.

TVV · 23rd November 2017, 12:24 AM

Jim and Norman,

Thank you very much - I read the threads on the Shotley Bridge swordsmiths, and the thread about Norman's M1742 hanger, as well as Jim's notes in the post on the running wolf mark in the Blade Markings Associated with European Makers thread. Thank you for confirming that this blade almost certainly started as a British hanger in the second half of the 18th century, before making it to the Maghreb to receive its current mounts.

Ariel,

I too am wondering about the reason for the unusual quillons bent perpendicularly to the blade. The hilt is most certainly Maghrebi: the form of the grip and the decoration of the white metal band under the guard are Moroccan in style. Could this have some chronological (earlier vs. later style) or geographical significance, or could it be a vestige from hilts with D-ring guards like those from Zanzibar? While less common, we have seen this type of guard before, like for example on the much higher quality sword posted by Tatyana in the link below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4782

Sincerely,
Teodor

Kubur · 23rd November 2017, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Jim and Norman,
or could it be a vestige from hilts with D-ring guards like those from Zanzibar? While less common, we have seen this type of guard before, like for example on the much higher quality sword posted by Tatyana in the link below:
r

Hi Teodor,

Yes you are right.
Here is another one from the 18th c. with the SH fox.

Best,
Kubur

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2017, 04:07 AM

Excellent Kubur!!! Thank you, here is the more well known fox from Birmingham with SH (Samuel Harvey) and thank you for the entry in the panel of markings.
* excellent note on the fluer de lis used in England as well! Is this from Gilkerson?

The fox without initials as I noted is in my opinion for John Dawes of Birmingham, but he did not initial his.

Trying to look back into discussions and research over the years on these sa'if, and the term 'nimcha/nimsha' which is not actually Arabic, but Persian loosely for half , or small sword. In many cases these are mounted with full length blades, so effectively a misnomer, but the 'nimcha' term is primarily a western term from collectors...locally they are sa'if.

There seems to have been a great deal of debate over classification of these hilts as to regional attribution, but none of it conclusive. For the most part the Buttin (1933) references to these swords is 'Arab', and the 'Zanzibari' assessment as far as a type of hilt is unsubstantiated.
There have been examples which have decoration corroborated with other material culture decoration, but these pertain to incidental case where a distinctly Zanzibar decorated example was at hand.

The loop guard is but one of it seems three hilt configurations, all are essentially Maghrebi.
One has the three drooping quillons; one has the loop guard over the blade at forte; the other has vertical 'pitones' extending from two drooping quillon terminals.
There do not seem to be pragmatic solutions as far as purposes for these other than design affectations. The ideas for blade catching etc are always at hand, but not well defined.

22nd November 2017, 07:13 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Moroccan Saif with a British (?) Hanger Blade Here is a Moroccan Saif, or what we as collectors commonly refer to as "nimcha". The blade might actually fall loosely into the "nimcha" category, as it is 27.25 inches long (69 cm) and based on the fox markings stamped on both sides, it probably originated as a British hanger or cutlass. The guard is also interesting, as it is of the type with the two inner quillons bent at a 90 degree angle to the blade, as opposed to running parallel to it. I found a similarly marked Moroccan sword in Oriental Arms Sold Items archive, with the more common guard form. Also, the fox on the one sold by Oriental Arms is running in the opposite direction. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

22nd November 2017, 09:31 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Interesting to see a British blade in one of these, though they are certainly known in this context. Actually this appears to be the 'fox' mark used in England as opposed to the 'running wolf' mark famed in German blades. The 'fox' was used in England originally in the Shotley Bridge works near Durham in the north in the late 17th c., and in response to the German wolf used earlier in the century with German smiths at Hounslow outside of London. In this case, the blade appears 18th century, and may be one applied in Birmingham c.1750s. Usually these bushy tail fox marks have the initials SH for Samuel Harvey, but it is known that another maker, Dawes, also used the fox but probably these were blank. There was notable trade by England with Morocco in the 17th century, and there are instances of English merchants wearing 'nimcha'. Whether this might be one such example, or a blade which ended up in the Moroccan context would be hard to say, but the connection is clear. ** see currently running thread on Shotley Bridge for more on these marks.

22nd November 2017, 10:15 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Teodor, You may find this thread of interest. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=1742 My Regards, Norman.

22nd November 2017, 11:45 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The side langets bent to form a circle perpendicular to the blade are characteristic of Omani “Zanzibar” saifs. The greatest majority of Moroccan saifs ( “nimchas”) sport trade european blades. Thus, I do not find it unusual to see a British one. I think we even saw here a Moroccan Koummya ( a very peculiar blade!) with British marks. My guess only Flyssas were always local.

23rd November 2017, 12:24 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Jim and Norman, Thank you very much - I read the threads on the Shotley Bridge swordsmiths, and the thread about Norman's M1742 hanger, as well as Jim's notes in the post on the running wolf mark in the Blade Markings Associated with European Makers thread. Thank you for confirming that this blade almost certainly started as a British hanger in the second half of the 18th century, before making it to the Maghreb to receive its current mounts. Ariel, I too am wondering about the reason for the unusual quillons bent perpendicularly to the blade. The hilt is most certainly Maghrebi: the form of the grip and the decoration of the white metal band under the guard are Moroccan in style. Could this have some chronological (earlier vs. later style) or geographical significance, or could it be a vestige from hilts with D-ring guards like those from Zanzibar? While less common, we have seen this type of guard before, like for example on the much higher quality sword posted by Tatyana in the link below: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4782 Sincerely, Teodor

23rd November 2017, 04:07 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Excellent Kubur!!! Thank you, here is the more well known fox from Birmingham with SH (Samuel Harvey) and thank you for the entry in the panel of markings. * excellent note on the fluer de lis used in England as well! Is this from Gilkerson? The fox without initials as I noted is in my opinion for John Dawes of Birmingham, but he did not initial his. Trying to look back into discussions and research over the years on these sa'if, and the term 'nimcha/nimsha' which is not actually Arabic, but Persian loosely for half , or small sword. In many cases these are mounted with full length blades, so effectively a misnomer, but the 'nimcha' term is primarily a western term from collectors...locally they are sa'if. There seems to have been a great deal of debate over classification of these hilts as to regional attribution, but none of it conclusive. For the most part the Buttin (1933) references to these swords is 'Arab', and the 'Zanzibari' assessment as far as a type of hilt is unsubstantiated. There have been examples which have decoration corroborated with other material culture decoration, but these pertain to incidental case where a distinctly Zanzibar decorated example was at hand. The loop guard is but one of it seems three hilt configurations, all are essentially Maghrebi. One has the three drooping quillons; one has the loop guard over the blade at forte; the other has vertical 'pitones' extending from two drooping quillon terminals. There do not seem to be pragmatic solutions as far as purposes for these other than design affectations. The ideas for blade catching etc are always at hand, but not well defined.