Angle between ganja and pesi

Michel · 3rd September 2007, 06:50 PM

Between the pesi (peksi) and the Ganja, there is an angle
Very often, if not always, there is also an angle between the pesi and the axe of the blade.
What is the signification of this angle ?
Why is it there ?
How big is it and does that angle varies with the origin of production of the keris ?
I have looked in my books but could not find any information on this subject.
Can anyone give explanations ?
Thanks, regards
Michel

Rick · 3rd September 2007, 10:10 PM

Hi Michel, I'm not too sure what you mean by angle in this case .

This first example I've posted seems to be pretty much at a 90 degree angle to the ganja.

Or do you mean the attitude or angle the keris blade assumes when dressed as shown in the second picture ?

Rick

Michel · 3rd September 2007, 10:52 PM

Hi Rick,
Thanks for your answer. There are two angles to consider:
The first that you mentioned with your first picture: is not 90°. It is systematically slightly off 90°.
The second is the clearly seen on your second picture : If you prolonged the Axe of the ganja you have clear angle with the Axe of the blade.
I have read something somewhere, but can't remember where and it was linked to fighting with keris. I do not believe very much in the fighting abilities of the keris and think that many of its Subtleties are derived from other reasons. But one never knows !
I am ready to listen to any valid explanation
Thanks, regards,
Michel

Rick · 3rd September 2007, 11:24 PM

Hi Michel, I was told by one of our members that this attitude of the blade is called Condong Leleh and that it relates to the gesture of sembah.

Perhaps our fellow member could comment on this as I do not wish to simply parrot information given to me by others.

Rick

drdavid · 3rd September 2007, 11:50 PM

This is just a theory based on biomechanics (part of what I do in my day job) and I am sure that there are symbolic meanings for the angle as well but here goes:
if you look at a fencing foil (it is probably the best example of a thrusting weapon still in use) you will find that the hilt is generally slightly angled as well, I cannot remember the angle but it is not great perhaps 15 degrees downwards. This angle allows the wrist to sit in a position where thumb, wrist and forearm form a straight line when the blade is pointing directly forwards (horizontal to the ground). Hence in a thrust/lunge you have the wrist in the most stable position at impact transferring the load up the forearm rather than through the wrist, you gain a couple of centimetres in elongation and you hit with the point directly forwards. The angle also allows you to have a handle/hilt that sits well in the palm or in the case of a foil allows you to use a pistol grip. Please feel free to pull this theory apart.
cheers
DrD

Rick · 3rd September 2007, 11:58 PM

I think you've hit the biomechanics nail right on the head .

ganjawulung · 4th September 2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Michel, I was told by one of our members that this attitude of the blade is called Condong Leleh and that it relates to the gesture of sembah.

Hi Michel,
I had an experience with the late Empu Djeno in Jogjakarta, in 1996. (It related to Rick's comment on "condong leleh", that I think Rick is right). At that time, I asked Empu Djeno to participate in our Tosan Aji (including keris) Exhibition in Bentara Budaya Jakarta August 1996, but he refused it because he felt too old (67 years old at that time) to leave his house in Moyudan, Gatak, Sleman Jogjakarta just to come to an exhibiton in Jakarta.

He told me that he was very proud in the past, because the late Sultan Hamengku Buwono (HB) IX had commissioned two kerises to him. One with dhapur "jangkung mangkunagoro" (three luks) in 1984, and "sinom tuding" (straight keris with sekar kacang, with very sharp point called "nyujen") in 1985.

On "condong leleh", according to Empu Djeno, HB IX had different bow with his predecessors, HB VII which was to straight, and HB VIII that was too bow... HB IX, according to Mr Djeno, chose in between (bow) of the two predecessors. Of course, HB IX didn't tell Mr Djeno, why this Jogja sultan asked him to do the commissioned kerises like that. But in the interpretation of Empu Djeno, the "condong leleh" showed the attitude of the gentlemen (who commissioned the keris) toward the society, or the environtment surround him. HB IX was too "straight" against the dutch colonial, and HB VIII too "bow" to the dutch authority...

This is just my simple sharing to you, Michel...

Ganjawulungt

Michel · 4th September 2007, 05:16 PM

Gentlemen,
Thank you for sharing these interesting explanations.
They are diverse and sometime complementary. I will retain that:
- there are biomechanical reasons related to the fighting use of the keris,that explains the angle between the pesi and the the blade. The angle I have measured on the images in "Keris Jawa antara mistic dan nalar" is 10°
- This angle is not there for esthetical reasons but for the previously mentioned biomechanical one and is built very precisely. There I must acknowledge my ignorance of the word "bakalan" and as result, I do not understand fully Alan's explanation. (sorry Alan my Dictionary has not yet arrived).
- The angle between the pesi and the ganja is the result of the difference of thickness of the ganja, of the position of the pesi on the width of the blade and of the previous angle. This position is precisely given by the "bakalan" and a grid utilized by empu and keris makers. I will find more on this in Alan's paper:"origin of the Keris"
-If there is also a symbolic reason to the first angle (humbleness ?) the second angle seems to be there only as the result of the above given reasons.

I am in the middle of a keris patrem forging and it seems that I will miss the exact positioning of the pesi on the blade as I did not know of the "bakalan" question. I think I can get the right angle , but my pesi will be a bit out placed. I guess I will have to live with that.
A final question: what is the thickness of the ganja ? is there a rule or can I make it just esthetically ?
Thanks to all for all these informations
Regards
Michel

3rd September 2007, 06:50 PM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Angle between ganja and pesi Between the pesi (peksi) and the Ganja, there is an angle Very often, if not always, there is also an angle between the pesi and the axe of the blade. What is the signification of this angle ? Why is it there ? How big is it and does that angle varies with the origin of production of the keris ? I have looked in my books but could not find any information on this subject. Can anyone give explanations ? Thanks, regards Michel Attached Images

3rd September 2007, 10:10 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Michel, I'm not too sure what you mean by angle in this case . This first example I've posted seems to be pretty much at a 90 degree angle to the ganja. Or do you mean the attitude or angle the keris blade assumes when dressed as shown in the second picture ? Rick Attached Images

4th September 2007, 05:16 PM	#8
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	the right angle Gentlemen, Thank you for sharing these interesting explanations. They are diverse and sometime complementary. I will retain that: - there are biomechanical reasons related to the fighting use of the keris,that explains the angle between the pesi and the the blade. The angle I have measured on the images in "Keris Jawa antara mistic dan nalar" is 10° - This angle is not there for esthetical reasons but for the previously mentioned biomechanical one and is built very precisely. There I must acknowledge my ignorance of the word "bakalan" and as result, I do not understand fully Alan's explanation. (sorry Alan my Dictionary has not yet arrived). - The angle between the pesi and the ganja is the result of the difference of thickness of the ganja, of the position of the pesi on the width of the blade and of the previous angle. This position is precisely given by the "bakalan" and a grid utilized by empu and keris makers. I will find more on this in Alan's paper:"origin of the Keris" -If there is also a symbolic reason to the first angle (humbleness ?) the second angle seems to be there only as the result of the above given reasons. I am in the middle of a keris patrem forging and it seems that I will miss the exact positioning of the pesi on the blade as I did not know of the "bakalan" question. I think I can get the right angle , but my pesi will be a bit out placed. I guess I will have to live with that. A final question: what is the thickness of the ganja ? is there a rule or can I make it just esthetically ? Thanks to all for all these informations Regards Michel Attached Images

3rd September 2007, 10:52 PM	#3
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Hi Rick, Thanks for your answer. There are two angles to consider: The first that you mentioned with your first picture: is not 90°. It is systematically slightly off 90°. The second is the clearly seen on your second picture : If you prolonged the Axe of the ganja you have clear angle with the Axe of the blade. I have read something somewhere, but can't remember where and it was linked to fighting with keris. I do not believe very much in the fighting abilities of the keris and think that many of its Subtleties are derived from other reasons. But one never knows ! I am ready to listen to any valid explanation Thanks, regards, Michel

3rd September 2007, 11:24 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Michel, I was told by one of our members that this attitude of the blade is called Condong Leleh and that it relates to the gesture of sembah. Perhaps our fellow member could comment on this as I do not wish to simply parrot information given to me by others. Rick

3rd September 2007, 11:50 PM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	This is just a theory based on biomechanics (part of what I do in my day job) and I am sure that there are symbolic meanings for the angle as well but here goes: if you look at a fencing foil (it is probably the best example of a thrusting weapon still in use) you will find that the hilt is generally slightly angled as well, I cannot remember the angle but it is not great perhaps 15 degrees downwards. This angle allows the wrist to sit in a position where thumb, wrist and forearm form a straight line when the blade is pointing directly forwards (horizontal to the ground). Hence in a thrust/lunge you have the wrist in the most stable position at impact transferring the load up the forearm rather than through the wrist, you gain a couple of centimetres in elongation and you hit with the point directly forwards. The angle also allows you to have a handle/hilt that sits well in the palm or in the case of a foil allows you to use a pistol grip. Please feel free to pull this theory apart. cheers DrD

3rd September 2007, 11:58 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I think you've hit the biomechanics nail right on the head .