Turkish?Georgian? Polish? Shamshir

erlikhan · 15th February 2005, 12:23 AM

I recently acquired this shamshir from one of the most luxurious antiquities auctions here, for an unbelievable price! ( around the total of two pcs. silver scabbarded average kindjals with good condition) . And furthermore, I acquired a long and heavy, silver mounted shashka and a good American marine sword in the same lot included in this price too. Shamshir was so heavily patinated that I am sure most thought the mountings were iron, and looked unattractive to high society customers, but in fact they are all high grade silver, including scabbard mountings, even the hanging loops, all cross guard,wires and grip strap. I've only cleaned a little part of it yet. Grips are ivory. Blade is 90 cm. Confusing point , is the gold koftgari on both sides. What alphabet and language are they? Any suggestions? Seems partially as latin, partially as Kril, or anything else?? On the locket and grip strap, there are also Islamic inscriptions,which I have no idea if are Turkish, Persian or anything else.

http://www.pbase.com/erlik29/inbox
can you pls check the pics and any opinions?

Conogre · 15th February 2005, 12:42 AM

That is a simply magnificent piece!
Congratulations is about the only thing I can say.

Rivkin · 15th February 2005, 12:52 AM

It seems Latin to me.

TNGAINES SIN NONO ? the rest is concealed.

erlikhan · 15th February 2005, 01:57 AM

Well, i dont know if that means anything in Latin, but looks like a hopeful approach to read the letters. First two letters are concealed under the guard and first is a M for sure, the 2nd perhaps a R? . On the other face, first two concealed letters are M and R? too.

Jeff D · 15th February 2005, 02:34 AM

Hi Erlikhan,

Great find! That silver when polished will look great. Looks like a Syrian scabbard and guard with an Ottoman hilt (and hilt strap) with eastern European blade. Our Transylvanian-American friend may be able to help you with the translation.

Nice find I wish I could find an auction like that here.

Jeff

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2005, 04:10 AM

Erlikhan,
My first inclination when looking at the beautiful sabre was that it was possibly associated with the award sabres often presented to Georgian nobles by Russia during the 19th c. as the heavily inlaid gold panel suggested. I checked a book on this ("Russian Award Weapons 18th-20th c.", Moscow, 1994) which is in Russian text, and while similarities occur, nothing for sure. The quillon terminals seem similar to Russian mameluke type sabres (klitch)of the late 19th c. for Cossack sotnias, but again nothing definite.

The scabbard and mounts do have certain Arabian appearance as Jeff has noted. The wire wrap around the base of the grip seems to be a Persian, Northern India characteristic, which is also seen on Arabian sabres. Also the scabbard throat with inset to receive langet and the agrab (device below the langet slide) seems similar to some swords made in India for export to Arabia. The Ottoman hilt in ivory seems unusual as these are more common in dark horn.

At first I thought the panel inscription may be Georgian as the form although very stylized seemed to resemble some of the letters. Then the more I look at the panel, which as discussed seems to have a Latin theme, I began to think I see a familiar phrase. We can only see one side of the blade, but could the familiar 'Spanish motto' be in these seemingly stylized letters?
" NO NE ENVAINES SIN HONOR"
Is there the same type panel on the opposite side?

Truly a puzzling sabre, which whatever it may be is a fantastic example, even more so if that particular motto is what I am seeing there.

As always, just putting observations on the table for evaluation.

Best regards,
Jim

15th February 2005, 12:23 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Turkish?Georgian? Polish? Shamshir I recently acquired this shamshir from one of the most luxurious antiquities auctions here, for an unbelievable price! ( around the total of two pcs. silver scabbarded average kindjals with good condition) . And furthermore, I acquired a long and heavy, silver mounted shashka and a good American marine sword in the same lot included in this price too. Shamshir was so heavily patinated that I am sure most thought the mountings were iron, and looked unattractive to high society customers, but in fact they are all high grade silver, including scabbard mountings, even the hanging loops, all cross guard,wires and grip strap. I've only cleaned a little part of it yet. Grips are ivory. Blade is 90 cm. Confusing point , is the gold koftgari on both sides. What alphabet and language are they? Any suggestions? Seems partially as latin, partially as Kril, or anything else?? On the locket and grip strap, there are also Islamic inscriptions,which I have no idea if are Turkish, Persian or anything else. http://www.pbase.com/erlik29/inbox can you pls check the pics and any opinions? Last edited by erlikhan; 15th February 2005 at 01:42 AM.

15th February 2005, 04:10 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Erlikhan, My first inclination when looking at the beautiful sabre was that it was possibly associated with the award sabres often presented to Georgian nobles by Russia during the 19th c. as the heavily inlaid gold panel suggested. I checked a book on this ("Russian Award Weapons 18th-20th c.", Moscow, 1994) which is in Russian text, and while similarities occur, nothing for sure. The quillon terminals seem similar to Russian mameluke type sabres (klitch)of the late 19th c. for Cossack sotnias, but again nothing definite. The scabbard and mounts do have certain Arabian appearance as Jeff has noted. The wire wrap around the base of the grip seems to be a Persian, Northern India characteristic, which is also seen on Arabian sabres. Also the scabbard throat with inset to receive langet and the agrab (device below the langet slide) seems similar to some swords made in India for export to Arabia. The Ottoman hilt in ivory seems unusual as these are more common in dark horn. At first I thought the panel inscription may be Georgian as the form although very stylized seemed to resemble some of the letters. Then the more I look at the panel, which as discussed seems to have a Latin theme, I began to think I see a familiar phrase. We can only see one side of the blade, but could the familiar 'Spanish motto' be in these seemingly stylized letters? " NO NE ENVAINES SIN HONOR" Is there the same type panel on the opposite side? Truly a puzzling sabre, which whatever it may be is a fantastic example, even more so if that particular motto is what I am seeing there. As always, just putting observations on the table for evaluation. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th February 2005 at 04:23 AM.

15th February 2005, 12:42 AM	#2
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	That is a simply magnificent piece! Congratulations is about the only thing I can say.

15th February 2005, 12:52 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	It seems Latin to me. TNGAINES SIN NONO ? the rest is concealed.

15th February 2005, 01:57 AM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Well, i dont know if that means anything in Latin, but looks like a hopeful approach to read the letters. First two letters are concealed under the guard and first is a M for sure, the 2nd perhaps a R? . On the other face, first two concealed letters are M and R? too.

15th February 2005, 02:34 AM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Erlikhan, Great find! That silver when polished will look great. Looks like a Syrian scabbard and guard with an Ottoman hilt (and hilt strap) with eastern European blade. Our Transylvanian-American friend may be able to help you with the translation. Nice find I wish I could find an auction like that here. Jeff