Keris bargain

thomas hauschild · 3rd October 2020, 10:25 AM

Bad, rainy weather in germany, bank holiday due to reunion-day. Good time to share some pieces.

I got this as a real bargain. All the woodwork seems to be new but of a good quality ( with some fake wormholes lol ) but I like the blade that seems to have some nickel content. The concrete plates are square 40 cm to have an imagination of the size. Java ? Any comments will be welcome.

Best Thomas

kai · 3rd October 2020, 02:08 PM

Hello Thomas,

The fittings are recent examples of a more modern Bali style that was mainly worn by dancers/performers. The dots are not supposed to be wormholes but rather emphasize/contrast the negative space - usually these are more densely placed...

From the limited pics, the blade might well be from Bali.

Regards,
Kai

Jean · 3rd October 2020, 02:20 PM

The blade looks old and more than 40 cm long, but I would rather attribute it to Java North Coast and not Bali (thickness, shape, style of greneng, pejetan, deep tikel alis, pamor pattern, etc.).
In your place I would replace the recent hilt & scabbard

Regards

thomas hauschild · 3rd October 2020, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

The blade looks old and more than 40 cm long, but I would rather attribute it to Java North Coast and not Bali (thickness, shape, style of greneng, pejetan, and deep tikel alis, pamor pattern, etc.).
In your place I would replace the recent hilt & scabbard

Regards

Yes I will. With 30€ for that piece there will be some potencial left for a good hilt & scabbard

Jean · 9th October 2020, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas hauschild

Yes I will. With 30€ for that piece there will be some potencial left for a good hilt & scabbard

Hello Thomas,
This is an example of a suitable scabbard and hilt for your blade, but they are difficult to find.
Regards

David · 3rd October 2020, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Thomas,

The fittings are recent examples of a more modern Bali style that was mainly worn by dancers/performers. The dots are not supposed to be wormholes but rather emphasize/contrast the negative space - usually these are more densely placed...

From the limited pics, the blade might well be from Bali.

Kai, i have also heard for some time that this form of dress may have originally developed from a form worm by dancers. I have even used that description of this dress form in the past since i do not like referring to any keris as a "tourist" keris. That said, however, i do not believe i have ever seen a photograph of a Balinese dance with a keris that uses this dress form. Have you?
I would say that even if we can find some actual evidence that this dress form was used at one time for a legitimate Balinese dance or stage form, it seems more than likely to me that the intent an purpose of this particular example was never for any kind of cultural use in dance or theatre, but rather to house a keris intended for those who travel for pleasure.

A. G. Maisey · 4th October 2020, 02:53 AM

Old blade, West Jawa/North Coast.

Dress is as Kai has stated.

This style did start as a dancer's dress. I have seen a couple that came into Australia before WWII, but the dress style began to proliferate with the tourism boom that began in 1970's.

Two or three reasons for this.

Bali keris have never been as prolific as Javanese keris, less people in Bali and the Balinese people themselves lost faith in the power of their ancestors to protect them after the puputans. There is a story in the keris trade in Jawa that Japanese took thousands of keris out of Bali during WWII and later.

However, there is a continuing need for dress keris and performers' keris in Bali, and that need has often been filled by Javanese keris that are still in Javanese dress. Still, today, you can see the Balinese cultural police who enforce the rules during Hari Nyepi and other important occasions wearing Javanese keris, not Balinese keris.

So this rather exuberant dress style we see here was developed strictly for performers. But the tourists liked it so much that after a kecak dance or whatever they wanted to buy the performers' keris. So this keris style then morphed into a Balinese souvenir.

But it did not start that way.

Personally, I would not change anything on this keris. It is an excellent example of its type. Blade is nothing special, just a blade to hold the dress together.

Apart from which, how do we get a nicely made, nicely fitted wrongko for this blade unless we send it or take it to Jawa? In the Time of Covid? I should be in Jawa right now, but with the situation there I don't reckon I'll be back for another two or three years, minimum.

Of its type, a nice keris.

Jean · 4th October 2020, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Old blade, West Jawa/North Coast.

Personally, I would not change anything on this keris. It is an excellent example of its type. Blade is nothing special, just a blade to hold the dress together.

Apart from which, how do we get a nicely made, nicely fitted wrongko for this blade unless we send it or take it to Jawa? In the Time of Covid? I should be in Jawa right now, but with the situation there I don't reckon I'll be back for another two or three years, minimum.

Thank you Alan.
As a collector, I try to get matching pieces and would feel reluctant to mix an old javanese blade with a new balinese scabbard. This blade would look quite nice after cleaning and warangan IMO.
Regarding the subject of shipping kris parcels to and from Java, I am glad to report that I recently received a large parcel from DHL Surabaya without any problem and at a very reasonable cost. However I did not ship any parcel since the Covid Period.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 4th October 2020, 02:13 PM

Jean, many years ago my standards were perhaps not so far different to your own, but over time my ideas have changed. I have learnt that to the people in the two keris bearing societies that I know best, this approach of matching blade to dress is not quite so important to them as it is to collectors from outside the societies.

It is true that if a Javanese man wishes or needs to wear a keris as an item of formal dress, then that man is more or less compelled to wear a keris in dress that matches with the dress that the man himself is wearing, and this approach is intensified within kraton societies.

But the further one moves away from the influence of a kraton, the less important this. When we move into rural districts in Central Jawa a keris is keris, the compulsion of matching dress disappears for most people.

In Bali for at least the last 50 years a similar situation has prevailed. As I have previously mentioned, men in positions of authority in Bali do not hesitate to wear keris in dress other than that which we would recognise as Balinese.

My own approach as a collector is that if a keris is dressed acceptably for the society from which it comes, then it is not really my place to over-rule the owners of that society and change that dress in order to satisfy my own standards.

I do acknowledge that your standards of collecting are pretty much the norm for the vast bulk of collectors who come from outside keris bearing societies, and I can understand this approach.

David · 5th October 2020, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Old blade, West Jawa/North Coast.

Dress is as Kai has stated.

This style did start as a dancer's dress. I have seen a couple that came into Australia before WWII, but the dress style began to proliferate with the tourism boom that began in 1970's.

Two or three reasons for this.

Bali keris have never been as prolific as Javanese keris, less people in Bali and the Balinese people themselves lost faith in the power of their ancestors to protect them after the puputans. There is a story in the keris trade in Jawa that Japanese took thousands of keris out of Bali during WWII and later.

However, there is a continuing need for dress keris and performers' keris in Bali, and that need has often been filled by Javanese keris that are still in Javanese dress. Still, today, you can see the Balinese cultural police who enforce the rules during Hari Nyepi and other important occasions wearing Javanese keris, not Balinese keris.

So this rather exuberant dress style we see here was developed strictly for performers. But the tourists liked it so much that after a kecak dance or whatever they wanted to buy the performers' keris. So this keris style then morphed into a Balinese souvenir.

But it did not start that way.

Personally, I would not change anything on this keris. It is an excellent example of its type. Blade is nothing special, just a blade to hold the dress together.

Apart from which, how do we get a nicely made, nicely fitted wrongko for this blade unless we send it or take it to Jawa? In the Time of Covid? I should be in Jawa right now, but with the situation there I don't reckon I'll be back for another two or three years, minimum.

Of its type, a nice keris.

Hi Alan. I completely agree with you that this re-dressing this keris doesn't make too much sense, especially if the sheaths made specifically to accommodate this blade or re-fitted well to accept it.
I do not doubt you story of the history of this dress and this is similar to what i have already heard. However, i still cannot recap ever seeing photographs of performers with this keris dress in hand (or sash). Do you have any photographs that establish this history? It seems more than likely that performers would be photographed, even as far back as early 19th century. So i would think there should be some photographic evidence to support this history.

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2020, 10:46 PM

No David, in fact I cannot recall seeing dancers in Bali wearing keris with any style of dress.

I guess there are probably a lot of photos of dancers with a keris in hand, such as with your example, but what usually happens with the scabbard is that once the keris is drawn the scabbard gets dropped.

Unlike Jawa where there is plenty of opportunity to see people in traditional dress, and wearing keris, in Bali since the 1960's, there is virtually no public display of keris, and about the only times I've seen keris worn in Bali is at weddings, and by the cultural police during enforcement of rules & order at Hari Nyepi.

The Barong Dance is the one that people mostly associate with the keris, I've seen a few performances of this dance and usually the keris that are used by the dancers are handed out by a priest.

There is something else to remember too, and that is that although you might see a dancer wearing a keris before a performance, unless there is the need for a keris in the actual performance, and this is rare, he will not wear the keris while performing.

In the days of film ordinary people counted the photos they took, because each shot cost real money. Now, in the age of the digicam the tourists flock into Bali --- or they did, pre-Covid --- and many of these tourists go on a clickfest from the moment the plane starts its descent into Ngurah Rai airport.

They don't stop until they get back on the plane to go home. They literally see Bali through the viewfinder and go home with 20,000 images. A lot of these images get processed & put up on the internet.

How many pictures can you find on the net that show dancers in Bali wearing keris?

3rd October 2020, 10:25 AM	#1
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	Keris bargain Bad, rainy weather in germany, bank holiday due to reunion-day. Good time to share some pieces. I got this as a real bargain. All the woodwork seems to be new but of a good quality ( with some fake wormholes lol ) but I like the blade that seems to have some nickel content. The concrete plates are square 40 cm to have an imagination of the size. Java ? Any comments will be welcome. Best Thomas Attached Images

3rd October 2020, 02:20 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The blade looks old and more than 40 cm long, but I would rather attribute it to Java North Coast and not Bali (thickness, shape, style of greneng, pejetan, deep tikel alis, pamor pattern, etc.). In your place I would replace the recent hilt & scabbard Regards Last edited by Jean; 3rd October 2020 at 08:48 PM.

3rd October 2020, 02:08 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Thomas, The fittings are recent examples of a more modern Bali style that was mainly worn by dancers/performers. The dots are not supposed to be wormholes but rather emphasize/contrast the negative space - usually these are more densely placed... From the limited pics, the blade might well be from Bali. Regards, Kai

4th October 2020, 02:53 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Old blade, West Jawa/North Coast. Dress is as Kai has stated. This style did start as a dancer's dress. I have seen a couple that came into Australia before WWII, but the dress style began to proliferate with the tourism boom that began in 1970's. Two or three reasons for this. Bali keris have never been as prolific as Javanese keris, less people in Bali and the Balinese people themselves lost faith in the power of their ancestors to protect them after the puputans. There is a story in the keris trade in Jawa that Japanese took thousands of keris out of Bali during WWII and later. However, there is a continuing need for dress keris and performers' keris in Bali, and that need has often been filled by Javanese keris that are still in Javanese dress. Still, today, you can see the Balinese cultural police who enforce the rules during Hari Nyepi and other important occasions wearing Javanese keris, not Balinese keris. So this rather exuberant dress style we see here was developed strictly for performers. But the tourists liked it so much that after a kecak dance or whatever they wanted to buy the performers' keris. So this keris style then morphed into a Balinese souvenir. But it did not start that way. Personally, I would not change anything on this keris. It is an excellent example of its type. Blade is nothing special, just a blade to hold the dress together. Apart from which, how do we get a nicely made, nicely fitted wrongko for this blade unless we send it or take it to Jawa? In the Time of Covid? I should be in Jawa right now, but with the situation there I don't reckon I'll be back for another two or three years, minimum. Of its type, a nice keris.

4th October 2020, 02:13 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Jean, many years ago my standards were perhaps not so far different to your own, but over time my ideas have changed. I have learnt that to the people in the two keris bearing societies that I know best, this approach of matching blade to dress is not quite so important to them as it is to collectors from outside the societies. It is true that if a Javanese man wishes or needs to wear a keris as an item of formal dress, then that man is more or less compelled to wear a keris in dress that matches with the dress that the man himself is wearing, and this approach is intensified within kraton societies. But the further one moves away from the influence of a kraton, the less important this. When we move into rural districts in Central Jawa a keris is keris, the compulsion of matching dress disappears for most people. In Bali for at least the last 50 years a similar situation has prevailed. As I have previously mentioned, men in positions of authority in Bali do not hesitate to wear keris in dress other than that which we would recognise as Balinese. My own approach as a collector is that if a keris is dressed acceptably for the society from which it comes, then it is not really my place to over-rule the owners of that society and change that dress in order to satisfy my own standards. I do acknowledge that your standards of collecting are pretty much the norm for the vast bulk of collectors who come from outside keris bearing societies, and I can understand this approach.

5th October 2020, 10:46 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	No David, in fact I cannot recall seeing dancers in Bali wearing keris with any style of dress. I guess there are probably a lot of photos of dancers with a keris in hand, such as with your example, but what usually happens with the scabbard is that once the keris is drawn the scabbard gets dropped. Unlike Jawa where there is plenty of opportunity to see people in traditional dress, and wearing keris, in Bali since the 1960's, there is virtually no public display of keris, and about the only times I've seen keris worn in Bali is at weddings, and by the cultural police during enforcement of rules & order at Hari Nyepi. The Barong Dance is the one that people mostly associate with the keris, I've seen a few performances of this dance and usually the keris that are used by the dancers are handed out by a priest. There is something else to remember too, and that is that although you might see a dancer wearing a keris before a performance, unless there is the need for a keris in the actual performance, and this is rare, he will not wear the keris while performing. In the days of film ordinary people counted the photos they took, because each shot cost real money. Now, in the age of the digicam the tourists flock into Bali --- or they did, pre-Covid --- and many of these tourists go on a clickfest from the moment the plane starts its descent into Ngurah Rai airport. They don't stop until they get back on the plane to go home. They literally see Bali through the viewfinder and go home with 20,000 images. A lot of these images get processed & put up on the internet. How many pictures can you find on the net that show dancers in Bali wearing keris?