it's kriss sajen???

HartCone · 22nd May 2006, 03:13 AM

hallo everyone,
I have never seen kriss sajen like this one...
I would really appreciate any help you can give me to recognize what kriss is???

regard

nechesh · 22nd May 2006, 04:00 AM

The answer is probably yes and no. This is a thoroughly modern creation, but it is done in the style of keris sajen, having an all-in-one construction of all metal. But i somehow doubt it has the same talismanic intention that a true keris sajen would have so perhaps it needs a different name. It seems like a keris created for collection to me. As such is is an attractive piece.

Alam Shah · 22nd May 2006, 04:22 AM

Hmmm... a mixed styled. A modern creation. How about "Keris Pandawa Sajen" for a name. Dapur style looks like Pandawa Luk 5 with a sajen styled hilt. Just my 2 cents worth.

nechesh · 22nd May 2006, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmmm... a mixed styled. A modern creation. How about "Keris Pandawa Sajen" for a name. Dapur style looks like Pandawa Luk 5 with a sajen styled hilt. Just my 2 cents worth.

I'll buy that...especially for 2¢.

doecon · 22nd May 2006, 09:35 PM

Hartcone, can you please add some close up of the part near the base (Ganja). You have a very intresting shaped elephant tongue there.
Its probably not an old blade, but it seems to have some quality. Would love to see more.

Ria · 22nd May 2006, 04:36 AM

Hi,

This sort of form remind me a picture of keris by Van Duuren, Kerisses: A Critical Bibliography, page 105

Ria

Alam Shah · 23rd May 2006, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ria

Hi, This sort of form remind me a picture of keris by Van Duuren, Kerisses: A Critical Bibliography, page 105... Ria

The metal hilt portion and the entire length looks similar... except that there's no 'kinatah' gold-works and this is a luk 5 vs a luk 11 in the book. The example in the book does closely resemblence this piece, similar but not the same... does not look old, either. Imo, only.

Ria · 23rd May 2006, 04:59 AM

Alam Shah,

Yes, I agree that the blade is not 100% similiar especially on the gold work and the luk number. In respect of having a gold on the blade, I have quoted below from The world Of The Javenese Keris, by Solyom, page 23, "......in part perharps because when patinated its smooth black surface was subtly handsome and in striking contrast to gold, but more perharps because of the powers associated with it" From my personal point of view, if I referred Hartcone's blade, it is not about having a good work of art (gold work), but it is more about to enhance it talismanic value.

Ria

nechesh · 23rd May 2006, 05:26 AM

I dunno, Ria, my feeling is that this is probably a modern piece and as such i doubt there is any talismanic intention in it.
BTW, the passage you quote from Solyom is completely out of context. He is not even talking about keris in this passage, but explaining that other objects such as buckles, nut cutters and other small accessories might have been made out of patinated iron by mpus and may even have pamor. He explains that this was not only because the smooth black surface was considered handsome, but also because of the accepted powers associated with iron. So i don't see how this quote applies here.
I have never seen a talismanic keris sajen with kinatah before. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, but i am not sure that such decoration is in keeping with the intention of the keris sajen.

Alam Shah · 23rd May 2006, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ria

... From my personal point of view, if I referred Hartcone's blade, it is not about having a good work of art (gold work), but it is more about to enhance it talismanic value...Ria

Hi Ria, I understood what you're trying to imply.

Your reference did help me recalled where I've seen the example. Thank you. Btw, there's not many reference to this type.

Could you elaborate how does having the one-piece construction or the metal hilt enhance it talismanic value?

The reason I asked is, because I have a similar type which I hope you could assist.
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

This one-piece type with a longer conventional keris blade, any idea when did this form started to appear? Or had it evolved from a ceremonial piece into its existing modern form?

nechesh · 23rd May 2006, 05:58 AM

That is an interesting keris Shahrial. Didn't we talk about this one once before? I don't remember the thread exactly. Is the hilt welded on? It certainly appears as if it is a seperate piece since there is a seperate gonjo. The blade itself looks old, but the gold work looks new. Have you ever had the inscriptions translated?
I'm not sure i would classify your keris as sajen either, since it seems to have a seperate gonjo and hilt (even if the hilt is welded, it still must be seperate). But it seems to be more than just a keris made for collection purpose.
What is it about this keris that gives you the impression it was used by a healer?

Alam Shah · 23rd May 2006, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Didn't we talk about this one once before? I don't remember the thread exactly.

We did...just hoping that more info can be acquired for this piece...

Quote:

Is the hilt welded on?

Probably...it cannot even be moved, even with the heating technique.

Quote:

It certainly appears as if it is a seperate piece since there is a seperate gonjo. The blade itself looks old, but the gold work looks new. Have you ever had the inscriptions translated?

It appears that way. I believe that the talismanic inscriptions were a later add-on too (at least more than 17 years ago). The inscriptions had been translated, many years back...

Quote:

I'm not sure i would classify your keris as sajen either, since it seems to have a seperate gonjo and hilt (even if the hilt is welded, it still must be seperate). But it seems to be more than just a keris made for collection purpose.

Perhaps? Any idea on its purpose?

Quote:

What is it about this keris that gives you the impression it was used by a healer?

David, esoterically speaking, it's just a probable guess...

nechesh · 23rd May 2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Perhaps? Any idea on its purpose?

Shahrial, i would imagine a good clue into that purpose would be the meaning of the inscription on the blade. I understand why, for esoteric purposes, you might not want to share that info here, but it does limits my understanding of the blade not knowing. I am not trying to convince you to share this info, just pointing out that it would be helpful to answering your question.

Ria, no problem on you misunderstanding of Solyom's passage. Your English is better than my Indo.

I just wanted it to be clear so as not to mislead anyone.

Ria · 23rd May 2006, 08:11 AM

Quote:

BTW, the passage you quote from Solyom is completely out of context.

Nechesh,
It's clear I have mislead the passage. At begining, my understanding is about gold to relate with the power. I have to admit my English is not good , English is not my first language at home and I have tried my best to write in this forum. I have never seen before a keris sajen with kinatah work either.

Quote:

Could you elaborate how does having the one-piece construction or the metal hilt enhance it talismanic value?

Alam Shah,
Sorry, I could not assist you on this. Looking on your blade with inscription, I strongly believed, it should something about talismanic (tangkal/azimat) which is something common on Malay society. Alam Shah, I believed the inscription is not taken from Quran (ayat Al Quran?).

Ria

Alam Shah · 23rd May 2006, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ria

Alam Shah, Sorry, I could not assist you on this.

It's ok, trying my luck...

.

Quote:

Looking on your blade with inscription, I strongly believed, it should something about talismanic (tangkal/azimat) which is something common on Malay society.

But it's a Javanese keris... isn't it? I do agree on the talismanic part, though.

Quote:

Alam Shah, I believed the inscription is not taken from Quran (ayat Al Quran?). Ria

No, I believe it is not. Thank you for your attention. Let's get back on track, regarding HartCone's piece...

HartCone · 23rd May 2006, 02:15 PM

haha...

hybrid kriss 'pandawa sajen'....

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

Hartcone, can you please add some close up of the part near the base (Ganja). You have a very intresting shaped elephant tongue there.
Its probably not an old blade, but it seems to have some quality. Would love to see more.

yes is not an old blade, is unusual shape of modern kriss....
i'll post the detail soon...

many thx for any comment to my pandawa sajen kriss....

regard

22nd May 2006, 03:13 AM	#1
HartCone Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 5	it's kriss sajen??? hallo everyone, I have never seen kriss sajen like this one... I would really appreciate any help you can give me to recognize what kriss is??? regard Attached Images

22nd May 2006, 04:36 AM	#6
Ria Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 14	Van Duuren's book Hi, This sort of form remind me a picture of keris by Van Duuren, Kerisses: A Critical Bibliography, page 105 Ria

23rd May 2006, 04:59 AM	#8
Ria Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 14	Gold work Alam Shah, Yes, I agree that the blade is not 100% similiar especially on the gold work and the luk number. In respect of having a gold on the blade, I have quoted below from The world Of The Javenese Keris, by Solyom, page 23, "......in part perharps because when patinated its smooth black surface was subtly handsome and in striking contrast to gold, but more perharps because of the powers associated with it" From my personal point of view, if I referred Hartcone's blade, it is not about having a good work of art (gold work), but it is more about to enhance it talismanic value. Ria

22nd May 2006, 04:00 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	The answer is probably yes and no. This is a thoroughly modern creation, but it is done in the style of keris sajen, having an all-in-one construction of all metal. But i somehow doubt it has the same talismanic intention that a true keris sajen would have so perhaps it needs a different name. It seems like a keris created for collection to me. As such is is an attractive piece.

22nd May 2006, 04:22 AM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hmmm... a mixed styled. A modern creation. How about "Keris Pandawa Sajen" for a name. Dapur style looks like Pandawa Luk 5 with a sajen styled hilt. Just my 2 cents worth.

22nd May 2006, 09:35 PM	#5
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Hartcone, can you please add some close up of the part near the base (Ganja). You have a very intresting shaped elephant tongue there. Its probably not an old blade, but it seems to have some quality. Would love to see more.

23rd May 2006, 05:26 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I dunno, Ria, my feeling is that this is probably a modern piece and as such i doubt there is any talismanic intention in it. BTW, the passage you quote from Solyom is completely out of context. He is not even talking about keris in this passage, but explaining that other objects such as buckles, nut cutters and other small accessories might have been made out of patinated iron by mpus and may even have pamor. He explains that this was not only because the smooth black surface was considered handsome, but also because of the accepted powers associated with iron. So i don't see how this quote applies here. I have never seen a talismanic keris sajen with kinatah before. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, but i am not sure that such decoration is in keeping with the intention of the keris sajen.

23rd May 2006, 05:58 AM	#11
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	That is an interesting keris Shahrial. Didn't we talk about this one once before? I don't remember the thread exactly. Is the hilt welded on? It certainly appears as if it is a seperate piece since there is a seperate gonjo. The blade itself looks old, but the gold work looks new. Have you ever had the inscriptions translated? I'm not sure i would classify your keris as sajen either, since it seems to have a seperate gonjo and hilt (even if the hilt is welded, it still must be seperate). But it seems to be more than just a keris made for collection purpose. What is it about this keris that gives you the impression it was used by a healer?