Tlingit dagger commission

Harry Marinakis · 10th May 2014, 07:46 AM

Greetings,

Always wanted a Tlingit dagger, so I starting looking around for a Tlingit to make one for me. Couldn't find anyone, so I started looking to non-Tlingit bladesmiths.

Leo Todeschini at Tod's Stuff was willing to give it a try, and after a lot of guidance and discussion, I received this 40 cm in the mail. Hope you like it.

Tod's Facebook photos of the dagger
Tod's Stuff - Tlingit Dagger

archer · 10th May 2014, 11:55 PM

Hi Harry,
Welcome and Fantastic. Does the Silver pommel slip off to reveal another blade? a few years back I was lucky to acquire a Haida Shaskat. Seeing yours I'm thinking that the difference between the two tribes daggers is the flat vs ribbed opposite side. That difference seems to carry over from the voluted and other Tlingit shapes.

Pleased to see your example, Steve

David · 11th May 2014, 12:31 AM

Welcome to the forum Harry. I must say that is a really beautiful reproduction of a Tlingit dagger. Leo took up the challenge and did a fine job. I would image that he probably used the blade below as at least a partial template for this work.
I hope you will forgive me though, if i suggest that you still do not actually own a Tlingit dagger. Though a beautiful reproduction for sure it does not carry the cultural intent or purpose of the blade it has been designed after nor has it been crafted by that culture. These were very special ritual blades that had a real function within the society that produced them. The dagger below is named Keet Gwalaa (Killer whale dagger).
I don't say this simply to put a damper on you new baby. Personally i would love to own such an exquisite repro as this. If we were on a blade smith forum or some other knife collector's forum it probably wouldn't require mentioning. But since we are an ethnographic weapon's site i feel it is necessary to state the difference. Enjoy your new dagger. It is a pretty stunning thing.

Battara · 11th May 2014, 01:46 AM

I agree with David on all that he said, so I won't comment more on that.

What I will comment is on what a great job the bladesmith and you did! The fluting is great, the head is wonderful. This reproduction is a true work of art, like what Vince Evans does with his Scottish dirks. Are the bases of the blade and the pommel copper? Looks like turquoise dots too. Is the pommel silver or steel?

Thank you for sharing - this is a true work of art!

Harry Marinakis · 11th May 2014, 04:19 AM

I agree, David, it's not truly a Tlingit dagger, it's a reproduction designed by a white guy and modified even more by a European.

I am really disappointed that I was unable to find a Tlingit who was willing to even respond to my inquiries about making a dagger. I guess the Tlingit dagger really is a "lost" art.

ariel · 11th May 2014, 05:40 AM

What difference would it make if the bladesmith was "pure" Tlingit, "half" Tlingit or no Tlingit at all? In any case the knife would remain a contemporary replica, unrelated to Tlingit history and tradition. Of course, you would like to have a genuine, 200 years old Tlingit knife ( who wouldn't!), but as long as there is no history behind it, the ethnicity of the creator is of no consequence. It is the artistic level that counts.

Shakespeare was English, but Hamlet was a Prince of Denmark, Romeo was Italian and Othello was a Moor.

My neighbor, Louis Mills, is a world-famous Nihonto bladesmith and his creations are sold in Japan for tens of thousands of dollars, and the best contemporary wootz-makers are in Russia,

On a topic closer to my heart, virtually all sushi places over here are owned and staffed by ethnic Koreans and some of their apprentices are White. Visiting Japanese patronize them all the time and judge them by the quality of rice and freshness of fish rather than by the ethnic origin of cooks.

A lot of Chinese junk on e-bay is made by purebred ethnic Chinese. Does it make their stuff any less junkier?

Harry, enjoy your knife, it is a first-class work of art. Nothing else counts.

David · 11th May 2014, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Marinakis

I am really disappointed that I was unable to find a Tlingit who was willing to even respond to my inquiries about making a dagger. I guess the Tlingit dagger really is a "lost" art.

I'm not yet convinced that it is a lost art Harry, though that may be the case. A dagger in the form of the one you have had made is not just any old utility knife to a Tlingit. It is a deeply spiritual ritual object and while daggers like these often fall into the custodianship of a single person they are usually considered to be tribal regalia of a sort. This may be the reason you could not find a Tlingit willing to make one for you.

What you have is truly a fine work of art, even if not an ethnographic one. One thing i would suggest is that as the commissioner of this piece you might want to take on the responsibility to ensure (to the best of your ability) that it is always properly represented. It would be a shame to see this dagger being passed off as a true Tlingit artifact 2 or 3 generations down the line and i think there is a good chance it could pass as such if it losses its connection to its true origin.

10th May 2014, 07:46 AM	#1
Harry Marinakis Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 7	Tlingit dagger commission Greetings, Always wanted a Tlingit dagger, so I starting looking around for a Tlingit to make one for me. Couldn't find anyone, so I started looking to non-Tlingit bladesmiths. Leo Todeschini at Tod's Stuff was willing to give it a try, and after a lot of guidance and discussion, I received this 40 cm in the mail. Hope you like it. Tod's Facebook photos of the dagger Tod's Stuff - Tlingit Dagger Attached Images

10th May 2014, 11:55 PM	#2
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Tlingit vs. Haida Hi Harry, Welcome and Fantastic. Does the Silver pommel slip off to reveal another blade? a few years back I was lucky to acquire a Haida Shaskat. Seeing yours I'm thinking that the difference between the two tribes daggers is the flat vs ribbed opposite side. That difference seems to carry over from the voluted and other Tlingit shapes. Pleased to see your example, Steve Attached Images

11th May 2014, 12:31 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Welcome to the forum Harry. I must say that is a really beautiful reproduction of a Tlingit dagger. Leo took up the challenge and did a fine job. I would image that he probably used the blade below as at least a partial template for this work. I hope you will forgive me though, if i suggest that you still do not actually own a Tlingit dagger. Though a beautiful reproduction for sure it does not carry the cultural intent or purpose of the blade it has been designed after nor has it been crafted by that culture. These were very special ritual blades that had a real function within the society that produced them. The dagger below is named Keet Gwalaa (Killer whale dagger). I don't say this simply to put a damper on you new baby. Personally i would love to own such an exquisite repro as this. If we were on a blade smith forum or some other knife collector's forum it probably wouldn't require mentioning. But since we are an ethnographic weapon's site i feel it is necessary to state the difference. Enjoy your new dagger. It is a pretty stunning thing. Attached Images

11th May 2014, 01:46 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I agree with David on all that he said, so I won't comment more on that. What I will comment is on what a great job the bladesmith and you did! The fluting is great, the head is wonderful. This reproduction is a true work of art, like what Vince Evans does with his Scottish dirks. Are the bases of the blade and the pommel copper? Looks like turquoise dots too. Is the pommel silver or steel? Thank you for sharing - this is a true work of art!

11th May 2014, 04:19 AM	#5
Harry Marinakis Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 7	I agree, David, it's not truly a Tlingit dagger, it's a reproduction designed by a white guy and modified even more by a European. I am really disappointed that I was unable to find a Tlingit who was willing to even respond to my inquiries about making a dagger. I guess the Tlingit dagger really is a "lost" art.

11th May 2014, 05:40 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What difference would it make if the bladesmith was "pure" Tlingit, "half" Tlingit or no Tlingit at all? In any case the knife would remain a contemporary replica, unrelated to Tlingit history and tradition. Of course, you would like to have a genuine, 200 years old Tlingit knife ( who wouldn't!), but as long as there is no history behind it, the ethnicity of the creator is of no consequence. It is the artistic level that counts. Shakespeare was English, but Hamlet was a Prince of Denmark, Romeo was Italian and Othello was a Moor. My neighbor, Louis Mills, is a world-famous Nihonto bladesmith and his creations are sold in Japan for tens of thousands of dollars, and the best contemporary wootz-makers are in Russia, On a topic closer to my heart, virtually all sushi places over here are owned and staffed by ethnic Koreans and some of their apprentices are White. Visiting Japanese patronize them all the time and judge them by the quality of rice and freshness of fish rather than by the ethnic origin of cooks. A lot of Chinese junk on e-bay is made by purebred ethnic Chinese. Does it make their stuff any less junkier? Harry, enjoy your knife, it is a first-class work of art. Nothing else counts.