Flyssas

PBishop · 5th February 2007, 07:06 AM

Next on my edged-weapon wish list is a flyssa in good shape. I've been admiring these swords for years, and was suddenly struck by their resemblence to an old bronze age sword split down the middle. Anybody know about the development of the flyssa? Could it be a modified form of a bronze age sword? They do say that the Berbers are the aboriginal inhabitants of that part of N. Africa.

I found a pic of a bronze age sword of the type I had in mind, and cropped it to show you what I mean.

katana · 5th February 2007, 12:42 PM

A very interesting idea, the origins of the Flyssa seems unclear (as you probably know) .It will be interesting to see what others think .... I am sure Manolo (Emanuel) and Jim will add comments

Andrew · 5th February 2007, 01:26 PM

That's an interesting idea.

Check out the "Big Flyssa Thread" in the "Classics" Sticky. Welcome to the forum.

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2007, 03:28 PM

Thats an excellent observation!!! and exactly the kind of thinking that often presents great clues in the study of weapons development. Very impressive, and actually I had never noticed that particular similarity.
It is well known that many ethnographic weapons bear striking similarity to ancient weapons found typically in iconographic sources. Atavistic forms have often been believed to have been the influence in many later developed weapons in various cultures. Clearly the Greek kopis, the machaira and the Egyptian khopesh are prime examples.

The flyssa is a relative newcomer among many of the swords of North Africa, and its origins are somewhat obscure and obviously widely debated. I am inclined to believe that it likely is derived from early forms of yataghan with somewhat the same deep bellied blade form, as seen in the c.1510 example shown in "The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent" (1990, p.64, #50). There is clearly a considerable gap in time from the period of this weapon to the first known appearance of the flyssa c.1827, but again the expanses of time between the kopis' and machaira that likely were the inspiration for the Ottoman weapon are obviously as broad, and demonstrate the atavistic perspective descibed.

In using the search feature here, it will be seen that there have been many discussions on the flyssa, especially on how it may have been used in combat. Its use in combat seems supported as I have discovered one among the holdings of a Foreign Legion museum in France which was taken in battle in 1857. Much as the Black Sea 'cousin'

of these interesting swords, the flyssa left the working weapon group in a short period, probably about the early part of the 20th c.

Best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 5th February 2007, 04:35 PM

Hello!
That's a very interesting theory, with the big problem being how the transition took place between the bronze age sword and the flyssa. How des one get from a double-edged blade to a single edged? Maybe the similarity is purely aesthetic, and maybe there is domething to it. The same problem applies to the yataghan/flyssa relationship, where, as Jim noted, there is a bit of a gap in documentation.

As Andrew suggested

check out the Big Flyssa Thread, it contains all the discussions ( I think) about these fantastic weapons.
I have some crazy theory of my own, but it's way too insane to present at this moment

Also, this topic gets me passionate and I end up ranting a lot...so I'll stop now.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2007, 01:27 AM

Ok Manolo, puulleeze not the one about the aliens!!!

Just kidding!
All the best,
Jim

ariel · 8th February 2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PBishop

Next on my edged-weapon wish list is a flyssa in good shape. I've been admiring these swords for years, and was suddenly struck by their resemblence to an old bronze age sword split down the middle. Anybody know about the development of the flyssa? Could it be a modified form of a bronze age sword? They do say that the Berbers are the aboriginal inhabitants of that part of N. Africa.

I found a pic of a bronze age sword of the type I had in mind, and cropped it to show you what I mean.

With all due respect, I think this ingenious observation is way too fancy. Cogener weapons were shortened, lengthened, curved, straightened and otherwise modified but I know of no weapon that was constructed as a divided part of another blade. Double edged swords and single edged sabers may appear to follow this arrangement, but are derived independently, from totally different cultures.
Clever, but no cigar (at least from me).

5th February 2007, 07:06 AM	#1
PBishop Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 11	Flyssas Next on my edged-weapon wish list is a flyssa in good shape. I've been admiring these swords for years, and was suddenly struck by their resemblence to an old bronze age sword split down the middle. Anybody know about the development of the flyssa? Could it be a modified form of a bronze age sword? They do say that the Berbers are the aboriginal inhabitants of that part of N. Africa. I found a pic of a bronze age sword of the type I had in mind, and cropped it to show you what I mean. Attached Images

5th February 2007, 12:42 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	A very interesting idea, the origins of the Flyssa seems unclear (as you probably know) .It will be interesting to see what others think .... I am sure Manolo (Emanuel) and Jim will add comments

5th February 2007, 01:26 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	That's an interesting idea. Check out the "Big Flyssa Thread" in the "Classics" Sticky. Welcome to the forum.

5th February 2007, 03:28 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thats an excellent observation!!! and exactly the kind of thinking that often presents great clues in the study of weapons development. Very impressive, and actually I had never noticed that particular similarity. It is well known that many ethnographic weapons bear striking similarity to ancient weapons found typically in iconographic sources. Atavistic forms have often been believed to have been the influence in many later developed weapons in various cultures. Clearly the Greek kopis, the machaira and the Egyptian khopesh are prime examples. The flyssa is a relative newcomer among many of the swords of North Africa, and its origins are somewhat obscure and obviously widely debated. I am inclined to believe that it likely is derived from early forms of yataghan with somewhat the same deep bellied blade form, as seen in the c.1510 example shown in "The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent" (1990, p.64, #50). There is clearly a considerable gap in time from the period of this weapon to the first known appearance of the flyssa c.1827, but again the expanses of time between the kopis' and machaira that likely were the inspiration for the Ottoman weapon are obviously as broad, and demonstrate the atavistic perspective descibed. In using the search feature here, it will be seen that there have been many discussions on the flyssa, especially on how it may have been used in combat. Its use in combat seems supported as I have discovered one among the holdings of a Foreign Legion museum in France which was taken in battle in 1857. Much as the Black Sea 'cousin' of these interesting swords, the flyssa left the working weapon group in a short period, probably about the early part of the 20th c. Best regards, Jim

5th February 2007, 04:35 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello! That's a very interesting theory, with the big problem being how the transition took place between the bronze age sword and the flyssa. How des one get from a double-edged blade to a single edged? Maybe the similarity is purely aesthetic, and maybe there is domething to it. The same problem applies to the yataghan/flyssa relationship, where, as Jim noted, there is a bit of a gap in documentation. As Andrew suggested check out the Big Flyssa Thread, it contains all the discussions ( I think) about these fantastic weapons. I have some crazy theory of my own, but it's way too insane to present at this moment Also, this topic gets me passionate and I end up ranting a lot...so I'll stop now. Emanuel

6th February 2007, 01:27 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Ok Manolo, puulleeze not the one about the aliens!!! Just kidding! All the best, Jim